Adding "star"?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by natters, Jul 29, 2004.

  1. natters

    natters
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    Sorry for restarting a topic that looks like it was just discussed, but something was said that I would like further comment on. Askjo said that the NIV added the word "star" to Isaiah 14:12 because the word "star" is not in the Hebrew. I am wondering if the KJV then also added the word "star" in 2 Pet 1:19, because "star" is not in the Greek in that verse. The Greek word in that verse is "phosphorus", which as I understand it, is the same word in all Greek Bibles in Isaiah 14:12. How can one who defends the KJV as inerrant say the NIV is wrong for using "star" like this when the KJV does the exact same thing?
     
  2. Ransom

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    It has been explained to the KJV-onlyists that heylel in Hebrew, lucifer in Latin, and (as you point out) phosphoros in Greek are all proper names for the morning star.

    However, the KJV-onlyists are too in love with their pseudo-theology to believe the truth.
     
  3. Anti-Alexandrian

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    Folks really :rolleyes: .

    Satan was never a "STAR" he was a CHERUB(Ezekiel 28)!
    The "Star" in 2 Peter 1:19 is the LORD JESUS CHRIST.The Alexandrian forgeries are equating Jesus with Satan;just like the "Church" of the LDS does.
     
  4. Johnv

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    The Dead Sea Scrolls support the Alexandrian OT Texts. I suppose you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are a forgery too?
     
  5. Ransom

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    I guess they don't have metaphors on Anti-Alexandrian's planet.
     
  6. Charles Meadows

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    Here it goes again!!

    Heylel is of unknown derivation. It is not properly any Hebrew grammatical form and thus is often considered a proper name. It has been postulated to be from yalal (howl) and halal (shine) but neither is certain. Since heylalu is a hiphil form of yalal it was initially considered more likely but the discovery of some Ugaritic inscriptions at Ras Shamra suggests that the primitive Akkadian word for shine is similar to heylel (ellitu) so most scholars favor this nowadays.

    The morning star terminology comes in because ellitu and other terms of majesty were applied to venus and the demigod it was thought to represent. So when the bible says, "heylel ben shachar" (heylel son of the early dawn), the most likely image in the mind of an ancient near easterner would be of venus, so called the morning star.

    Jesus is called the morning star at times for the same reason - namely because it is a term of majesty. It is no wonder that Isaiah uses the term scornfully in 14:12 since the reference is to the king of Babylon and perhaps secondarily Satan.

    KJBO people will post after me here claiming that the phrase doesn't contain the words "kokhav" (star) or "boker" (morning) and therefore cannot mean morning star - but they are incorrect - and I'd wager none of them actually know Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic/Akkadian grammar or syntax.

    I don't suggest that this doesn't have Satan in mind as well - but the first reference IS to an earthly king and DOES refer to the would be "morning star".
     
  7. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    I don't suggest that this doesn't have Satan in mind as well - but the first reference IS to an earthly king and DOES refer to the would be "morning star".
    --------------------------------------------------

    It is not King Nebachadnezzar as you will see in the very last verse of this chapter of Daniel. Secondly, it is not, nor can it be referring to an earthly king, because this person is falling from heaven to the ground, and is brought down to hell and the pit. This verse of Isaiah is speaking about Satan, who is also the Dragon (who is cast out of heaven to earth during the tribulation period), Devil and old serpent. Satan has been the prince of this world, who is also the king of Bablyon throughout the ages.

    Daniel 4

    1. Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
    2. I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
    3. How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
    4. I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:
    5. I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.
    6. Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.
    7. Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.
    8. But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
    9. O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
    10. Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
    11. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
    12. The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.
    13. I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
    14. He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
    15. Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
    16. Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
    17. This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
    18. This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
    19. Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
    20. The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
    21. Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
    22. It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
    23. And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
    24. This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
    25. That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
    26. And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
    27. Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
    28. All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
    29. At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
    30. The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
    31. While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
    32. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
    33. The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
    34. And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    35. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
    36. At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellers and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
    37. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. Charles Meadows

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    What'd I tell ya!!!!!

    ;) [​IMG] :rolleyes:
     
  9. DeclareHim

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    I have Strong's Hebrew Dictionary and for Isaiah 14:12 it has the word translated "morning" is this
    "shachar"-"dawn, day, early, light, morning,whence riseth."

    So the MV's are correct for translating it morning. [​IMG]
     
  10. Trotter

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    Did you happen to realize the entire passage, from Isaiah 14:4 (starting just after "and say") through Isaiah 16:12, is poetry? And that poetry does not neccessarily have to reflect cold hard natural realities, but enlists figurative language that conveys feelings and emotions?

    Nowhere in the entire passage does it mention the devil. But I realize that people have made the inference that the "falling from heaven" must refer to Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Sort of a long strentch there.

    I used to hold to the same thing, Michelle. And, to be honest, it was our "spirited debate" on the subject that caused me to actually LOOK at what the passage had to say, instead of just taking somebody's word for it.

    Maybe you ought to try doing the same. But, you have to leave your presuppositions at the door.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  11. Charles Meadows

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    "Boker" is a more common Hebrew word for morning. It is a older type of noun called a segholate. "Shachar" appears more in poetic writing and has the connotation of the instant just before the sun rises.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    I can't read Hebrew.
    So i look to an English version.
    The King James Version is good.

    Ifaiah XIIII.12 (KJV1611):

    How art thou fallen frfom heauen,
    ||O Lucifer, sonne of the morning? how
    art thou cut downe to the ground which
    didst weaken the nations?


    ||Or, O day starre

    Yep, the second best translation, according
    to the inspired translators of the King
    James Version is "day starre".

    [​IMG] Praise Iesus, the Sonne of God! [​IMG]
     
  13. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Trotter quoted:

    Nowhere in the entire passage does it mention the devil. But I realize that people have made the inference that the "falling from heaven" must refer to Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Sort of a long strentch there.
    --------------------------------------------------

    It is also referenced in Revelation 12 and
    Ezek. 28. It is not a long stretch. The book of Revelation explains this pretty well. Don't just take my word for it, check it out. Isaiah 14 is a continuation of Isaiah 13 and it clearly shows this is prophetic - the Day of the Lord, still to come and is very relevant to the book of Revelation. Again, don't take my word for it, check it yourself.


    --------------------------------------------------
    I used to hold to the same thing, Michelle. And, to be honest, it was our "spirited debate" on the subject that caused me to actually LOOK at what the passage had to say, instead of just taking somebody's word for it.
    --------------------------------------------------

    If you notice in Isaiah 13:

    1. The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
    2. Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
    3. I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
    4. The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
    ( comment: Armageddon)

    5. They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
    6. Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    7. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

    Notice vs. 6 and 7?

    Also Ref. verse 7 to:

    Luke 21
    25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Now look at the last verses of Isaiah 13:

    19. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    20. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
    21. But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and Satyrs shall dance there.
    22. And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

    Then Isaiah 14

    1. For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

    Revelation 20
    4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Isaiah 14
    2. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

    Revelation 2

    26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    Revelation 13
    10. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


    Isaiah 14
    3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
    4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
    5. The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
    6. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
    7. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
    8. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.


    The rest of the comparisons I gave in another post if your are interested.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    non sequitur - 2. a remark having
    no bearing on what has just been said.

    [​IMG] Praise Iesus, the Sonne of God! [​IMG]
     
  15. Charles Meadows

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    Good one Ed!!!

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  16. robycop3

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    HEY, ED EDWARDS! TAKE NOTE!!!!!!!!

    This is just another KJVO double standard. they holler about adding "star" to Isaiah 14;12(Notwithstanding the AV translators' note, or, O day starre) while ignoring "God forbid" in sundry places in the KJV.

    Simple truth is, if "star" is wrong in Isaiah 14:12, then "God forbid" is wrong wherever it appears & it's not a direct translation of the Greek, and so is "the image of" in Romans 11:4.
     
  17. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Simple truth is, if "star" is wrong in Isaiah 14:12, then "God forbid" is wrong wherever it appears & it's not a direct translation of the Greek, and so is "the image of" in Romans 11:4.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The SIMPLE truth is, that you also fail to understand, is GOD in His POWER, CONTROL, and PROVIDENCE, allowed this to be rendered as "God forbid" and "Lucifer" in our english language for generations in the believing churches. There is no error, where you try to find error (which calls God a liar - and puffs up your own mind), in order to JUSTIFY those things that have altered the very words of God.

    John 16.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  18. natters

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    michelle said " allowed this to be rendered as "God forbid" and "Lucifer" in our english language for generations in the believing churches. There is no error"

    I don't think "Lucifer" is an error. Lucifer means morning star, as does Heylel in Hebrew as does Phosphorus in Greek as does Lucero in Spanish as does Morgenstern in German. It is correct. All the evidence supports this: dictionaries, lectionaries, concordances, historical writings, notes by reformation-era translators, everything. The only "evidence" that doesn't support it is the opinions of those who simply wish it wasn't true.
     
  19. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    I don't think "Lucifer" is an error. Lucifer means morning star, as does Heylel in Hebrew as does Phosphorus in Greek as does Lucero in Spanish as does Morgenstern in German. It is correct. All the evidence supports this: dictionaries, lectionaries, concordances, historical writings, notes by reformation-era translators, everything. The only "evidence" that doesn't support it is the opinions of those who simply wish it wasn't true.
    --------------------------------------------------

    We are English speaking people and Lucifer means Satan in English.

    Lucifer - O.E. Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from L. Lucifer "morning star," lit. "light-bringing," from lux (gen. lucis) + ferre "carry." Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its used in Bible to translate Gk. Phosphoros, which translates Heb. Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv.12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [K.J.V.]

    Webster New World Dictionary:

    Lucifer: Satan


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  20. natters

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    Michelle said "We are English speaking people and Lucifer means Satan in English."

    Lucifer has BOTH meanings in English. So we must determine which meaning is meant in the verse. Looking at all the evidence, it seems clear that the "morning star" meaning is the one that is intended. But thanks for your opinion, I shall now weigh your knowledge of Hebrew translation against all the other Bible translators throughout history in any language and try to determine who is more likely correct.
     

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