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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by LadyEagle, Jun 8, 2007.
CAn a person be saved if they miss the rapture?
Remember the people outside Noah's Ark!
Once that GOD shuts the door of HIS salvation, no man will be able to open it back up again....
Matt. 25:1-13 teaching us, once the door shut, there is no another second chance or opporunity for repent or salvation. Same with the second advent. When Christ shall come with his angels, then it will be too late for unbeliever to be repent. Once we are gathering together, then angels shall gathering all unbelievers for their destruction- judgment according to Matt. 13:49-52; Matt. 25:31-33.
The Bible doesn't teaching us there shall be another second chance of salvation after our gathering together at Christ's coming.
Same with the example of Noah's day. Once the door of Ark shut, then people's opporunity of repentance were finished and all were destroyed at once.
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I believe there is a second chance - God is a forgiving God. Plus there will be millions who have never heard the Gospel who will be saved during the Tribulation and be taken mid-trib to be with the rest of the saved.
==According to Revelation 7:4-17 millions of people, both Jew and Gentile, will be saved after the rapture and during the tribulation period.
1. The Rapture of the Church (Which keeps getting confused with the Second Coming of Christ), not the same thing. Only Christians will see Christ and hear the trump sound.
2. There will be martyrs during the Tribulation, 144,000 Jews (Not Jehovahs Witness, Mormon, Catholics, Church of Christ, Baptists, Penecostals, they are Jews, hand picked by God) will be spreading the Gospel to all the nations, The Two Witnesses, there will be thousands of fake Christians who are left behind who will see the error of their ways and turn to Christ. There is no church during the tribulation period, at all. If there was a church it would be mentioned after the first three chapters, but the church is gone. Where did it go, rapture? Yes!
3. We are not living on the New Earth and the New Heaven is not here either. This concept, idea, belief is ridiculous. I pray that my Lord would create something far better than a cursed Earth for his Children. I don't believe the things of this world will exist in Heaven, that would be for hell.
4. All prophecy has not been completed yet. Daniel speaks of an increase in knowledge and going to and fro. Before the invention of the car in the early 1900's, that wasn't possible, knowledging of late has been increasing rapidily. We have ability far beyond what anyone could have possibily imagined 50 years ago. Not all prophecy has been fullfilled.
5. Israel became a Nation again back in 1948, the Jews are heading home everyday, making their way back to the promised land of their fathers. Not all prophecy has been fullfilled.
6. Who was the anti-christ, the beast mentioned in the Bible? Nero, Hitler, one of Alexander's Captains? He has not appeared on the seen just yet.
I realize this statement was taken out of complete context, but this statement alone has sent many a soul to hell because it is adopted by everyone who does not have a relationship with God. God is mentioned to be a God of wrath more than a God of Love. God is just and if he is just then punishment must be paid. If you break the law of God, the penalty is death, eternal death, hell. The same people who use this line on a regular basis are living life styles of sin and abominations, they adopt your slogans as their daily moto. This statement, by itself will send people to hell in droves.
I got off topic and on to a little mini-rant, I am done now. Thanks
I forgot something else that should be included
7. The 70th week of Daniel has not come to pass until the church is raptured up into the heavens and that's when the tribulation begins. When the church age began and the weeks of the Jews was paused, the church is taken out and the 70 weeks of the Jews plays again.
I do not see anyone other than the 144,000 servants of God (Jews from the 12 tribes) being saved. The Word declares them to be redeemed from the earth.
But if one continues reading all through the book of Revelation, one will note that the rest of mankind repented not but continued to blaspheme God day and night.
No, no one else is saved after the Rapture of the Church.
The innumerable crowd martyred because of their witness? I believe they are all saints and Christians who have been martyred up to the time of the Rapture, not any after the rapture.
Those left behind after the Rapture who are not of the 144,000 sealed servants of God will not be saved. They will be sent strong delusions and believe the lie (satan) because they received not the love of the truth (Jesus Christ).
Not true, if there are 144,000 Jewish witnesses, who are they witnessing to? If there are two witnesses that produce great miracles, who are they witnessing to?
"And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avendge our blood on them that dwell on the Earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fullfilled." Revelation 6:9-11
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they that come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". Revelation 7:14
There will be those saved during the great tribulation. Many, many will be fooled into believing the anti-chirst and false prophet, but there will be those saved during the tribulation.
Because of the 144,000 witnesses (Jewish, virgin, male witnesses) that the Great Commision will be completed, Acts 1:8
SGW, the Word does not say 'out of the great tribulation', it says 'out of great tribulation.' Surely the martyrs down through the ages came out of great tribulation.
The 144,000 are said by the angel to be 'servants of our God.' I cannot find Scripture to say they were converting souls.
Nor can I find it to be said that the two witnesses are converting souls.
Those two witnesses were bringing witness of Christ, there is no doubt of that. But I believe they were bringing witness that the judgments to be poured out was because of man's rejection of Christ.
Again, Scripture does not say the number were in the tribulations that were poured out after the Rapture of the Church.
The 'fellowservants to be killed' in chapter 6 are the very 'servants' sealed in Revelation 7. 144,000 and no more.
You are 100% correct, I did not write that correctly, that is my fault, I try to make sure if I am going to post scripture I do it 100% the way it is written. Sorry about that.
Who is the chapter 7 verse 9 referring to?
Tribulation saints? I guess that would again be the 144,000, non-witnessing Jews. They are here for some reason, but yet we don't know why.
Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I believe those mentioned in verse 9 are the very ones mentioned in Chapter 6 verses 9 - 11:
Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I believe those at the altar were the 'fellowservants and brethren of the 144,000 sealed servants of God.
The 144,000 are serving God in some capacity, the service is unclear.
Those are two separate groups of people. One group is adorning white robes waiting for the judgement and the other group has come out of the tribulation or judgement. They can't be the same group and they can't be the 144,000, but cause their number is too great.
I am sure they have a service too, to witness to those who will be saved during the tribulation.
Those who are adorning the white robes are not the 144,000, but they are the fellowservants of the 144,000. Just as the angel was the fellowservant of John.
The souls that were innumerable in chapter 6 were told to rest until the fellowservants and brethren were killed. In Chapter 7, we see the fellowservants being sealed.
Read all of Revelation, all that are saved, are the 144,000 sealed. The rest of mankind repented not, but continued to blaspheme God day and night. One who is saved is not going to blaspheme God.
No more than 144,000 saved during tribulation period no matter how you look at it.
Your Exegetical Fallacy
==Then you are over looking 7:9-17. A very serious error on your part.
==With the exception of those saved from all tribes and nations in 7:9-17.
==Exegetical support for your claim? Those in Revelation 7:9-17 come out of "the great tribulation" (Rev 7:14, Matt 24:21). If the Rapture occurs before this "great tribulation", as I believe it does (1Thess 1:9-10, 5:9-10, Lk 21:36, Rev 3:10), then millions will be saved after the rapture. Even if my understanding on the timing of the rapture is wrong, the Scriptures are clear that millions from every tribe and nation will be saved during this great tribulation time.
==Again your exegetical fallacy is clear (Rev 7:9-17).
Revelation 7 does not say 'the great tribulation.' It says 'great tribulation.'
Do you not think having limbs cut off, being burned alive, dipped in boiling oil and other torments is great tribulation?
Foxx speaks of all these happening to Christians in the past
Nowhere in Revelation 7:9ff does it say those were killed during the tribulation. Try again./
The only rapture letters I know of are in the Bible which states "after the tribulation" and not before. Amazingly, NO organized church before 1830 ever taught a pretrib rapture. A few diehards including Tommy Ice - Google "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)" - and Todd Strandberg - Google "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)" - claim that a few individuals before 1830 taught it, but "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by MacPherson reveals their groundless claims. When Southerners find out how anti-South Darby was (see "An Exciting Day at Rapture Bible College" on the web), they'll abandon pretrib in droves - especially when they find out that their grandpappies and great-grandpappies during the 1600s, 1700s, and most of the 1800s were all posttrib rapturists!!!
==Sorry, it does say "the great tribulation". The NASB translates it "the great tribulation", as does the ESV, NLT, NIV, RSV, HCSB, and the NKJV. I looked it up in the greek text and the definite article is there. The passage does, without any textual doubt, say "the great tribulation". This verse, Rev 7:14, is clearly refering to the same thing Jesus was in Matt 24:21. A period of tribulation unlike anything the world has ever, or will ever, see.
==Yes it is, but it is not the great tribulation that will come upon the whole world. A tribulation so bad that if it was not cut short "no life would have been saved". So bad, in fact, that nothing like it has ever been in the history of the world (Matt 24:21-22). You are talking about things that occur to individuals, this eschatological great tribulation is what will come upon the whole world.
==The text says that these people "come out of the great tribulation". How they died, it does not say. However when we look at what the rest of Scripture says about that period of tribulation we can start to imagine how some/many of them may have died.