America is Christian Nation, part 2

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Ralph III, Sep 14, 2006.

  1. Ralph III

    Ralph III
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    This as to continue in following up on a few things.


    Av1611jim, I do not entirely disagree with your above statements though some is not quite coherent. There are a couple of things which I wish to address with you. As the other thread closed before I was able to do so. In addition I had asked numerous questions of you which none were answered. I have just a few I would like you to address.

    A) You have stated in regards to me, for everyone to see, that I advocate rebellion is “okey-dokey” with God. You are misrepresenting me to the point of playing a false witness or gossip! I have never said or implied rebellion is “okey-dokey” with God!!

    In fact, what I said in regards to rebellion and civil disobedience is;
    Please show where I have ever said rebellion or civil disobedience is okey-dokey with God. Otherwise a proper correction is due and would be appreciated.


    B) What I did was take issue with your judging others’ and saying God hates and rejects “ALL” rebellion. That “ALL” rebellion is sinful in God’s eyes and not something He would ever sanction. The fact is your statement is absolutely refuted in the Bible, which I and others’ pointed out. You simply chose to accept Marcia’s premise and/or to say it was not “germane” to the issue. Whether it was applicable to the subject or not is irrelevant! I strongly disagree with that notion however but will address Marcia on it.

    Again, yes disobedience or rebellion is wrong! But to say “all” rebellion or civil disobedience is always wrong, is again un-biblical! I believe, as Bible clearly shows this.


    Quotes by av1611jim:
    However this is what the Holy Bible says!
    God most definitely “approved” and “sanctioned” Jeroboam’s rebellion against King Solomon. His holy word says he actually “exalted” Jeroboam to become ruler! Which again came about through “rebellion” as the Bible specifically states.

    The word of God rejects your statement that He would never sanction a rebellion or approve of such! As He most certainly has at times and as specifically stated in 1 Kings 11:26. Do you accept this or not?

    Whether this is relevant to the American Revolution does not matter. As I stated earlier, “Whether God saw the rebellion(revolution) as sinful, justifiable, or initiated it, lies solely with Him”. This is a fact!

    What you have done is simply judge and entire nation and people. I am unsure what you mean by “unbelievers” as above but assume this is such again. Jesus said in Matt. 7: 1-2


    You stated God rejects “all forms” of rebellion.

    There was a time in Rome in which Christianity was outlawed and Christians killed. It was declared that Caesar was to be worshiped as god. Yet the disciples and other followers continued to faithfully teach the Lords word. Do you believe they were sinning by doing such?

    take care.

    In Christ. Ralph
     
    #1 Ralph III, Sep 14, 2006
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  2. Ralph III

    Ralph III
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    Hello Marcia.

    As noted the thread closed before I could address a few things by you and especially av1611jim. I wanted the opportunity to respond to a few comments.


    You missed the entire thrust I took with av1611jim, but actually made my point in doing so! He said God “hates rebellion, in any form...” and that God “never approves” or has ever “sanctioned” such.

    The Holy Bible absolutely refutes this notion as pointed out in
    God made Jeroboam ruler through rebellion against King Solomon! This as the Holy Bible specifically states. You replied in saying “But Ralph, this was all initiated by God, not man!”

    EXACTLY Marcia!



    Your statement here is obscure and not bound. How do you know God did not initiate the American Revolution? Or set things into motion by which a revolution would occur? After all we did go against the largest military power in the world and won. Through many wondrous and unlikely events and with a rag-tag army! This is something Washington and others often referred to when seeing God’s hand in establishing America.

    God rose up against Solomon and others because he had turned from the Lords ways. But to clarify, this included many sins as even seen today! It was not just limited to worship of false gods. The Lord sits in judgment and states “He who rules over men must be just, Ruling in the fear of God”. Sam 23:3

    But what of nations or Kings who do not rule justly or in fear of God? Such as the case with the King of England or Hitler, Caesar, Stalin etc. You’ll note they all lost power and great changes took place within each of those nations! So your conclusion that it is not relevant to today is wrong.

    If the Lord overthrew and punished evil empires and ungodly rulers in the Bible, then He surely could do so even today. Yes I agree with y’all in that America will and is being judged. This is all the more reason we should be vigilant in electing God fearing and loving men. That we should insist upon our nation in continuing to recognize the Lord and His will. Otherwise abortion, gay marriage, polygamy, euthanasia will become even more rampant and the norm.

    But Again. Whether God saw the American Revolution as sinful, sanctioned it, or initiated it lies solely with Him. I am not advocating rebelling against anyone or anything today. But I definitely am not going to stand in judgment of an entire nation and Founders who found themselves involved with it. Such as av1611jim did.

    Lastly, All passages within the Bible are relevant toward today! You and I participated in a debate with some over abortion and stem cell research. God bless you for your testimony in that thread! Yet, what did we base our argument on as neither is specifically mentioned in the Bible? We based it on our understanding of God's will. As we learn from all passages within the Bible and/or as He has spoken to our heart.



    Anyhow take care. :wavey: Ralph
     
    #2 Ralph III, Sep 14, 2006
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  3. av1611jim

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    Ralph III:
    Context, lad, context;

    1Ki 11:26
    ¶ And Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephrathite of Zereda, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow woman, even he lifted up his hand against the king.
    1Ki 11:27
    And this was the cause that he lifted up his hand against the king: Solomon built Millo, and repaired the breaches of the city of David his father.
    1Ki 11:28
    And the man Jeroboam was a mighty man of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph.
    1Ki 11:29
    And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:
    1Ki 11:30
    And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
    1Ki 11:31
    And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
    1Ki 11:32
    (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)
    1Ki 11:33
    Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
    1Ki 11:34
    Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:
    1Ki 11:35
    But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
    1Ki 11:36
    And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
    1Ki 11:37
    And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
    1Ki 11:38
    And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
    1Ki 11:39
    And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.
    1Ki 11:40
    Solomon sought therefore to kill Jeroboam. And Jeroboam arose, and fled into Egypt, unto Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

    Show me where Jeroboam reblled against Solomon. What this passage teaches is that GOD called Jeroboam to bring judgment upon solomon for his (Solomon's) idolatry.

    Hardly a rebellion either sanctioned or approved by God. This was of God and not of men. Jeroboam was called by God as His instrument of JUDGMENT upon Solomon. NOT REBELLION!!!:laugh:

    I stand by my words.:BangHead: :godisgood: God does NOT approve of rebellion.

    (Edited for spelling of that "...'boam" guy)
     
    #3 av1611jim, Sep 14, 2006
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  4. av1611jim

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    Ralph III;
    As to your pious quotation of Matthew 7:1-7 :
    I am willing to stand up to this standard. Are you?

    I offer for your consideration:

    Joh 7:24
    Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


    I am making my judgments according to Scripture. According to the PLAIN SENSE of Scripture. They are righteous judgments. Therefore your implied accusation that I am being 'judgmental' is in error. And, IMO, it is the last resort of one who has no leg to stand on when confronted by the Truth of Scripture.:wavey:
     
  5. av1611jim

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    America is NOT a Christian nation.

    It is true that many of the men who had a hand in establishing our form of government were Christian men, even Baptist men, but that in NO WAY establishes the premise that we are or ever were a Christian nation.

    No one as yet has shown where God approves of Rebellion against a LAWFUL RULER. King George was indeed a lawful ruler, as was Nero yet Paul and Peter both admonished the Christians to obey them.
    ________________________________________________
    Pr 8:15
    By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
    Pr 8:16
    By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

    It is God who sets up kings on this earth and it is not for man to rebell against them.
    ________________________________________________
    Ezr 7:26
    And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

    De 17:12
    And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
    De 17:13
    And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.


    Titus 3:1
    Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
    Tit 3:2
    To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

    1Pe 2:13
    Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
    1Pe 2:14
    Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
    1Pe 2:15
    For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
    1Pe 2:16
    As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
    1Pe 2:17
    Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.



    Will you heed the verdict of Scripture or not?

    :1_grouphug:
     
  6. Marcia

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    Hello, Ralph,

    First of all, we cannot take historical narrative and use that as doctrine. Secondly, we read the OT in light of the NT. Thirdly, God personally told Jeroboam what he was doing through a prophet. I see no such incidence in the American Revolution. There are not more OT prophets. There is no recording of God in the Bible saying the American Revolution is okay. So using an OT prophet who had direct revelation from God about how Solomon would be punished cannot be used at all to support any kind of rebellion today.

    If you look at the verses posted from the NT by AV1611Jim, you will see that God clearly lays it out for us that we are not to take up arms or rebel against any ruler. I think it's plain. To go back to an OT narrative and try to use that when we have God's clear commands in the NT is bad hermeneutics.
     
  7. NiteShift

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    "The Most High rules in the kingdom of men, gives it to whomever He will, and sets over it the lowest of men" Daniel 4:17.

    In the 20th century alone, we saw the fall of the German Reich, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Italian Empire of Benito Mussolini, the Japanese Empire of Hirohito. Maybe we can all agree that it was God’s will that these empires fall. And in each case, it involved armies. Armies that fought against established powers. God blessed the efforts of those armies, If He hadn’t, they would have failed.

    In 1989, the Soviet Union began to fall apart, and quickly broke up into 15 new nation states. The people in those nation-states rebelled against the Soviet Union in ways small and large. Sometimes by way of disobedience, sometimes with weapons. And God blessed their efforts, because it was His will that the Soviet Union fall at that time.

    Exactly right. We do not have the prophets here to tell us exactly what is God’s will in every situation. For that reason we depend on prayer, on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and reading of scripture. When we read about how God dealt with Israel, it gives us insight. No prophet, that we know of, told Churchill or Roosevelt to fight against the Third Reich, but I think we can all be pretty sure it was God’s will that they do it.

    God is known in the Bible as Lord of Hosts. What are hosts, but armies? When David was about to fight, he always prayed, "Shall I go up and attack?"… and the Lord answers : "Arise and go….for I am giving them into your hand."

    Many Americans prayed before seeking independence from Britain, and sought God’s will. God blessed them, they prevailed, and they did gain that independence. That’s not to say that God will always bless America, or that He will always bless wars for independence. He did in our case.






     
  8. Ralph III

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    Hello Marcia,


    But again you made my point! God made Jeroboam ruler through rebellion against a sinful King, Solomon! As the Holy Bible most specifically states! You replied in saying
    This is my point Marcia! Av1611jim has not, or may never; acknowledge God has sanctioned a rebellion!

    I have no problem debating whether the Founders sinned in the Revolution. But at worst that is what it would have been, a sin! At best it was something God sanctioned, therefore not a sin! The Bible overwhelmingly states, New and Old, that rebellion is wrong! However, the Bible also clearly shows the Lord has at times sanctioned rebellion, against evil or ungodly Rulers. This is something av1611jim will not acknowledge because it destroys his argument. But the word of God stands!



    (Some of the following is repetitive but necessary for context)



    This has always been a strong debate among Christians. Thus I am going to start a thread under the “Theology” forum as interesting as it is. You spoke of the New Testament versus the Old Testament, but God remains the same! What He wills shall be done!


    As noted, it is something which the Founders and Clergy also strongly debated before the Revolution. They came to justify acting against a tyrannical King and Parliament. Who held themselves in an idolatrous manner, as it was seen, by claiming to be sovereign “in all cases whatsoever”. They were also justified in defending themselves, their families, and their property. Which surely Christians have the right to do; as shown with Jesus telling the Apostles to get prepared in spreading His message, Luke 22:36.

    As noted, America had already become very independent of England, having over time established its own laws, customs, and leaders. The English tried re-establishing their rule through tyrannical acts on the people and leadership. By a new King who was afflicted with a maddening disease. Whose authority was later stripped, by the English themselves, due to his corruption and madness!


    Thus, 1 Cor. 7:21 was also something considered,

    The Apostles acted defiantly against the Rulers in spreading the Lords word. Yet if one holds to the notion that “all forms” of rebellion are sinful; then they are saying the Apostles sinned in spreading the word of God. Such as the scripture which av1611jim has put forth. Yet he has refused to answer such questions.

    Note Acts 5, when the Apostles were put in jail and on trial again for rebellious acts. In responding to the charges they say 29 “We ought to obey God rather than men.” But do especially note the counsel given by Gamaliel’s to the leaders. When he describes rebellion and former rebellions,
    Marcia this is the word of God. As also found in the New Testament!



    The fact is God deplores rebellion. However, whether God sanctioned the American Revolution, thus not sinful; or created good out of sin, lies solely with Him! But to say God has never or would never sanction rebellion, is not Biblical. As He has done such against ungodly and evil leaders.

    How many Christians today would stand by while their families were murdered, enslaved, children killed, property seized, women abused, God spat upon, His word rejected etc. etc; and hold to the notion God rejects "all" rebellion? Or uphold submiting ourselves unquestionably and fully to such evil? To stand at times against such evil as Hitler, Stalin and as Niteshift noted is to stand for God. I most definetly believe God plays a hand in such! After all Caesar rules no more!

    But to condemn, not just judge, an entire people as av1611jim did is wrong. It goes against what Jesus teaches us.


    In Christ, Ralph

    Take care.:wavey:
     
    #8 Ralph III, Sep 15, 2006
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  9. rbell

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    If all revolutions are inherently sinful...

    We are "wrong" for rebelling in 1776(ish).

    BUT, Britain was "wrong" for rebelling in 1066 (and I guess the glorious revolution as well);

    and just keep going back...

    I guess civilization #1 in history was the only one acceptable by this reasoning.
     
  10. Ralph III

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    Excellent point rbell! This is something I also noted earlier, to those who say we sinned against the English King. Well what of the Rulers before the King of England? Were we not ultimately bound to their authority as they were before the King!? Anyhow, they just stick with we sinned against the tyrannical and crazy King of England. Though we are across the world in another land and had established our own laws, customs and leaders. Which they usurped thus causing the Revolution.

    take care, Ralph:godisgood:
     
    #10 Ralph III, Sep 15, 2006
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  11. av1611jim

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    Call it revolution, I say rebellion. The root of revolution is revolt. I find that convenient use of renaming something to make it sound nicer revolting.

    Why bring up the 1066 thing? It is a smoke screen and is not germaine to the discussion.

    And by the way; civilization #1 was NOT acceptable for they rebelled against God also. Have you not read Genesis 11?

    It doesn't matter how many times governments have changed in history. As has been noted, it is God who sets up rulers and takes then down, yet He has always loathed rebellion. For you see, if it could be said that God APPROVES of rebellion then we would have to re-think our understanding of Satan's rebellion. And Scripture is clear on THAT one. God HATES rebellion, in any form. And......
    NOBODY HAS ADDRESSED PAUL'S AND PETER'S ADMONITION TO OBEY OUR RULERS!!! THEY WROTE THOSE WORDS AT THE TIME OF THE OPPRESSION OF ROME!!!!!!:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    Again, I must bring up Daniel and the three Hebrew children who did not bow, rebelling against Nebuchadnezzar.

    What we might view as rebellion may not be rebellion from God's point of view.
     
  13. Ralph III

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    Av1611jim, I appreciate the verses you have offered and with John 7:24.

    However that verse speaks of a good deed which was done on the Sabbath. This is the day we are to observe in rest and respect for God. Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and there were those who got mad because of such. Jesus said “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment”. He is saying here, to look for the greater good.

    This verse actually serves for the Founders and Nation. Though they may have sinned with the Revolution a much greater good came from it. This is not even arguable. America has historically been a God loving and fearing nation, even before. It was the whole purpose of the pilgrims and others coming here.

    They created a system by which we could worship the Lord freely as we enjoy today! According to our own conscience and without persecution; from a corrupt, tyrannical, and arguably idolatrous King and Church of England. They called upon the Lord to help them in this drastic measure fully understanding the possible consequences. They exalted the Lord in founding of the Nation, whether it was initiated through sin or not, and God surely did so. There is literally a mountain of official and personal, documents, speeches, legislative actions, etc showing this. It served for great changes worldwide in this regards.



    I am unfamiliar with the site but gives a good overview. http://mdccc.org/PAGES/Articles/American Christian Heritage Part Two - The Revolution and Beyond.htm
    Or you can go directly to the Library of Congress.
    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html



    You asked if I am willing to live to the standard of Matt. 7, in judging not of others. Yes I do. I may disagree strongly with others but I never resort to saying they are not Christian! You will not find any such post from me in that regards. Nor will you find where I stand in accusation of others sins. If I do so I always note my own first. You know, “remove the log” thing before helping your brother!


    I have no problem debating whether the Founders possibly sinned in the Revolution. But at worst that is what it would have been, a sin! At best it was something God sanctioned, therefore not a sin! The Bible overwhelmingly states, New and Old, that rebellion is wrong! However, the Bible also clearly shows the Lord has at times sanctioned rebellion, against evil or ungodly Rulers.



    No, the last leg is when scripture is ignored or not acknowledged. You said God has never sanctioned a rebellion or would exalt such. The Bible clearly shows He has.
    Again, Jeroboam “rebelled” against his King, Solomon! Is this a lie or the truth?
    God exalted and sanctioned this rebellion! Is this a lie or the truth?




    Av1611jim, I strongly disagree but do respect your position. So please do not take it personal as I mean not for it to be as such. But the word of God stands! I took issue with you’re A) condemning an entire people, without knowing or having been in their shoes, not that such matters, B) ignoring or diminishing 1 Kings, then C) painting a false picture of myself, though this was not such a deal with me.

    Though your post was flawed I found it very interesting. So I would like to start a post “rebellion” under the Theology thread. Tomorrow night.

    Anyhow, take care.:wavey: Ralph
     
    #13 Ralph III, Sep 15, 2006
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  14. Marcia

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    Jesus never rebelled. Healing on the Sabbath was not against God.

    I still say that using an incident which was judgment on Solomon, in the OT for which we have direct revelation from God to sanction rebellion is bad hermeneutics.
     
  15. Eric B

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    You say 1066 is not germane to the discussion, and acknowledge civilization #1 was in rebellion, but then cite God setting up rulers. So which is it? Rebellion, or God setting them up? Or maybe God set up only certain rulers, such as Israel and the English Monarchy? Oh, that 1066 thing, let's just forget about that; God established England, and the Americans were wrong to rebel.

    No, the point you touched on is true; all of mankind since that first civilization is in rebellion. So for God to take credit for "setting them up"; He must have been working (indirectly) through their rebellion, or "using" it, then, even though He is against it on the part of those doing it. That is all the others are trying to point out.
    What good does it do now to emphasize one nation's rebellion (and for the rest of you; one generation's rebellion within that nation)? What is the point? (Unless you're exempting some nations from the charge of rebellion, under the premise that God specifically ordained them, (and not others) and making them only victims of rebellion instead). If America is cursed because of that, then so is England, and every other nation that ever existed. But BINGO!! that is just what the Bible teaches, and points towards Christ's return to put them all down, and set up His Kingdom.
     
  16. NiteShift

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    Theologians and pastors at that time argued that God does not forbid resistance to rulers who do not govern wisely. In a nutshell, what they believed was that Romans 13 was warning against anarchy, and an admonishment to obey the rules of good order, not an endorsement of every government. They also argued that when George III sent troops to intimidate his own subjects, that this violated not only God's law, but British common law, the English Bill of Rights, and the Magna Carta.


     
  17. LadyEagle

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    Excellent point! :thumbs:

    Another thing, the American Revolution did not come about on a whim or without much prayer, agonizing, and sacrifice on the part of our Christian forefathers. Much was sacrificed, blood, land, deaths of loved ones, mortal wounds, freezing temperatures, gangrene, loss of limbs, hunger, prison - all so that we may sit here on this board 200 plus years later and "debate" whether or not their actions were sinful in hindsight. How sanctimonious and pompous of us.
     
  18. Ralph III

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    Amen LadyEagle.

    Excellent posts also Eric B. and Niteshift.


    Hope all is going well with EVERYONE!

    take care, Ralph:wavey:
     

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