Amnesty for Illegals and Statehood for Terrorists?

So then we should just shoot those trying to cross the border, to follow through with the whole steal the shirt analogy.

I'm not suggesting law breaking is acceptable, but it so much deeper then a person crossing the border in the middle of the night. You are seeing things so black and white, that you are missing that we are dealing with desperate human being who are in most cases are risking their lives to get to the United States.

The layers involved create so much grey pushing - children of illegals born in the United States -

 

While the USA wrings it's hands over the problem of babies born to illegals here in the USA, no other country would have a second though about deporting them- along with the parents who bore them.

Only in the USA do we seem to have a problem with enforcing our laws.

 

the law is black and white, sir.
until somebody legally modifies it, or paints what some see as its grey areas white, or black, an illegal immigrant is an ILLEGAL immigrant regardless of whatever reason he/she may have come to, or is in, the country.

A thief is a thief, even if he/she became a thief because of poverty. The cause of one's being a thief is not the concern of the laws against thievery, it is the protection of the private and public properties of the citizens of the land.

The reason immigration laws are in place is to protect the interests of those who are legally citizens or residents of this country, as well as the interests of this country.

 

There are consequences to illegal behavior. The responsibility lies on the law breaker not the country that has its laws broken.

 

Please define "desperate human beings".

Desperate for EXACTLY what?

Remember, when you reply, whatever you say, you will be concluding that I also have the same right to tresspass on my neighbor's land for the very same reason(s). It is illegal for me to go onto my neighbor's property, if he says say out without permission to enter.

 

Well said my friend!

 

The law is black and white, but human beings are grey through and through.

My point is that when people are willing to knowingly break laws and risk their lives doing it, we need to examine a whole lot deeper then " broke the law, go to jail".

I don't want anyone taking my stuff, but if the same people show up night after night in spite of the fences and armed patrols I have built and hired, at some point I have to realize that I have a much bigger and complex problem then just people want my stuff. Many think it's just a matter of enforcing laws, being tough on illegal activity. I'm telling you it's much more layered and complex then just being tough on crime.

Do you really want a me to define desperate or are you just trying to play some cutesy semantics game to make some point? Tell you what - go ahead make your point without me - if you can't fathom what a desperate person, I don't think I'm going to be able to help you.

Are you really willing to separate children from their parents? I'm not there, heart still beating I guess.

 

Here we go again. The more highly evolved humans look to excuse bad behavior, and look down upon us poor slobs who look to punish it.

The heart is decietful, and wicked above all things.

 

It is a bit disconcerting to me that there is so much concern for the laws of America specifically instead of humanity in general.

That being said let's turn the discussion in a different direction and see if perhaps be might find a bit more light.....

What exactly is the example and teaching of Jesus on this topic?

 

I don't think anyone is a poor slob, as I have stated previously, this topic is way more complex and layered then to have a black and white response that says throw them in jail.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

The Holy Bible, New International Version

How would Jesus handle this situation?

 

He would fulfill the Law, but not ignore it- which is what many want to do.

 

Interesting article

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2012-11-28/canada-shows-how-u-s-states-can-fix-immigration.html

 

He would say "go, and sin no more."

 

Good answer really.

You broke laws, don't do it anymore. Does that mean turning yourself in going back to the country of origin or would working to become a citizen suffice?

I would say work to legally establish yourself where you are at, though I'm not so sure that's entirely possible right now.

 

An interesting reply to a request to define "desperate for what" when illegally entering the US.

You have simply avoided the question. Or, you are implying with your "grey and complex" comments that most people can find excuses to break the law and should be allowed to continue to benefit from their crimes.

Can you give one actual example, of a property owner here in the US (excluding property owners along the border with Mexico) who actually puts up with the same folks trying to break into their premises night after night? Be honest. Would you?

"Risking their lives" ............. If that were truely the case, the flood across the border would be a trickle.

Sure, there's some risk, as there is with just about everything we do. In some places in America, people take their lives in their hands to walk down the street at night. How many men would take their wives and children down those streets, especially if they don't "belong" in the area? How many men are illegally bringing their wives and children across the border in comparison?

Desperate for what?

There's nothing "cutsey" about it, as you try to throw up a smoke screen. Sometimes at night I desperately crave a strawberry milkshake from Hardies. Does that mean I should have it? That Hardies should give it to me because I'm "desperate"? The local Hardies doesn't allow customers inside the premises after 10:00 pm, if memory serves. Drive through remains open. According to your premise, because I'm "desperate", and can't go to the window, it's OK for me to break in through the roof.

As I've mentioned before, I grew up dirt poor on a sharecropper farm. I know exactly what it means not to have the finer things in life that were enjoyed by some in my community. Well remember the days before REA brought electricity to our farm. And growing up in a house without indoor plumbing.

Desperate for what?

My parents were never desperate enough to feel they were entitled to tresspass on neighbor's property and expect to be rewarded with material goods and services for doing so. My parents were never desperate enough to use their children as pawns to receive the finer things in life.

Desperate for what?

Back to "grey and complex" for a moment. I know of a family in our community that I feel sure you'd put into this catagory. They are on the public dole. They are constantly begging for food, transportation, money for cigarettes, etc. to anyone they can corner into listening to their pleas. Especially when they plea for their child. :tear: Churches, including ours have tried to help them. Many of my friends have done the same. As have we. Last I heard they are about to be kicked out of their rental home. Both parents are abled bodied, yet neither one has a job. And both have excuses for not seeking work. (Child gets a free breakfast and lunch at school, so the child isn't starving.) According to "grey and complex" I have an obligation to continue to support these freeloaders on society. It is black and white. Scriptures tell us plainly if we don't work, we don't eat.

Further, it is black and white. If they break the law, because they are "desperate" they should do the time.

Desperate for what when illegally crossing the border?

PS: I don't remember asking for help! :flower:

 

As long as the person remains in this country illegally, the sin continues. Go back home. Then, stand in line, to wait your turn to enter the front door, just as many others have done before you.

Should a pastor remain in the pulpit when he sins and continues in that sin? He's knows, without a doubt, the consequences of continuing to sin. Isn't it the responsibility of the members of the church to remove him from the pulpit and for him to leave the church as he won't repent?

Should the church take pity on him, allowing him to remain in his work, because he's feeding a family or has some other grey area?

 

Are you really asking why someone from a poverty stricken situation in Mexico or Central America would be desperate to come to the United States?

Yes, risking their lives. Every year people die trying to cross into the United States from Mexico. To say nothing about the journey through Mexico, especially from Central America. In spite of these risks, they are still coming, knowing full well they could die or be arrested and sent back home. It has not slowed to a trickle like you suggest.

Even in your day there was a glimmer, as small as it may have been, that things could get better. For most in Mexico and Central America, if they are not born into some type of wealth, there is not chance for anything other then what they have right now, none! Even if they go into the drug trade their already short life span has just been shortened. They come risking their lives for at least a chance, a shot.

I don't know your background, but have you ever been to the borderlands? Have you seen at least partly the circumstances they are fleeing from?

 

I can accept that you think "go and sin no more" means return home. That's why I asked the question, I was interested in other folks opinion.

Your comparison of a pastor and someone illegally in this country having to choose what go and sin no more means however is severely lacking to say the least.

 

This statement has no weight behind it. What does it lack ?

 

I don't know if you're addressing my post, you could use the "quote" feature, you know.
But, anyway.
There will ALWAYS be a reason why people break laws, whether citizens of a country, or not.
But, again, REASONS are not the concern of laws.
Is that so hard to understand ?
Let me break it down to a lower level.
This guy, a vet, is an employee of Autozone (and some of you may probably have read about this incident).
So he and an assistant manager is closing up shop, and this guy comes in, waves a gun at them, takes the assistant manager to the room where the money is, leaves the vet in the main room.
The vet sees his chance, runs outside to the parking lot to retrieve his gun, comes back in, confronts the robber.
Things end well.
Cops come, robber goes to jail, cops say the vet is a hero.
Vet says his training kicked in: leave no man behind.
Assistant manager says "he's my hero".
Everybody happy.
Except autozone.
They FIRE the hero, who, by the way, is a family man, whose wife is on the way, and he desperately needs that job.
He gets FIRED because Autozone says there is a policy that the hero violated: NO GUNS IN WORK PLACE.
considering the background of WHY the hero brought the gun from his vehicle to the work place, is his firing REASONABLE ? is it HUMANE ? is it in line with GODLY principle ?
I'm sure YOU yourself, won't agree, and those of us who say THE LAW IS THE LAW, won't agree, either.
The cops definitely don't agree.
But, you see, as far as Autozone is concerned, there is a policy in place, a law to them which says no guns in the workplace, and, technically, yes, he broke that policy.
He needs to find an arbiter who can argue for him, but until then, he will have to suck it up, find a way to support his pregnant wife, and his soon-to-be-born baby.
The law is IMPERSONAL, sir.
It is what it is.

There is no one on this forum who denies that these illegal immigrants are in desperate straits, that poverty is so prevalent in their country. But THEY HAVE A GOVERNMENT, and THEY HAVE ELECTED OFFICIALS who are supposed to be seating in government, getting paid handsome salaries, to make life better for their countries' citizens.
If their own officials do not care enough about them to better their lives, why should we, the neighbor up north, be the ones to suffer the consequences ?
We have our own problems here, one of which is the proliferation of drugs from THEIR end that destroy the fiber of our society.
Another of which is the fact that there is now seated in the government seats of this country rulers who do not give much hoot about those they govern.
Now, if my neighbors' parenting of their children leaves much to be desired, why should my backyard, my house, and my properties be violated and why should I not demand that they do something about their parenting so I could live in peace ?

well, again, if it's me you're replying to, you're talking to someone who knows what DESPERATE means. You have not had the experience of missing an entire day's meals, my family had. You have not known how it is to live near a creek with the water reaching your floor and your feet when the tide comes in, in a house made of CARDBOARDS. My family have.
You have not known how it is to watch your child burn up with fever and have only half an aspirin on hand, I HAVE.
You have not known how it is to watch families at Christmas march by your cardboard house in their new shoes, new everything, and turn and look at your children wearing hand-me downs, I HAVE, do you know how heartbreaking that is ?
No, you don't.

So don't talk to me about desperate, friend.

It's a risk they took, they need to live with it.
Whether our hearts are beating or not has nothing to do with it.