An Interesting Post Against Eternal Security

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by AVBunyan, Aug 25, 2004.

  1. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    A while back I posted an article on a liberal site that was inspired by another article I read many years agao. My post was called "How To Lose Your Salvation In 2 Easy Steps" Of course my point was that man could not undo what God had done. I posted it and it got hammered, of course.

    Later a brother e-mailed me with this link of a site that was devoted against eternal security. Someone copied my post from the original site I posted it on and passed it along to the owner of the "against eternal security site".

    The admin or owner of the site then repsonded to my post and re-posted it on his website for all to "enjoy". It was kind of like how the Phillistines put Samson on display to mock. Well, I contacted the owner and told him that ws fine with me - I told him to "have at it" - I enjoyed reading all their comments on my article. Boy, that was really a trip, to say the least!

    At any rate the link is below - might be some interesting reading for you folks. It is interesting seeing folks pull all the stops to be able to lose their salvation. I do hope they at least had it in order for them to think they could lose it!

    My personal belieef is that those who truly believe they can lose salvation most likey are not saved anyway for they are actually trusting themselves and not what Christ did at Calvary.

    Check it out
    http://eternalsecurity.us/lose_your_salvation_in_two_easy_.htm

    God bless
     
  2. Bro Tony

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    Man AV,

    The other author really did go to the extremes of Scripture twisting to try to prove that there is no eternal security. I, like you, will just take God's Word for it, "...shall have everlasting life." "...no one can take them out of His hand" and many many more.

    Bro Tony
     
  3. superdave

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    Yep, I agree, those who rely on their own actions to ensure salvation, have a faulty view of it, and IMO do not possess true saving faith.

    Although I jokingly say, (and truthfully) that those who are among the elect and yet are arminian in theology will be in heaven whether they like it or not. :D
     
  4. James_Newman

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    I would like to know what you make of warning scriptures such as the ones he points out, starting with if we defile the temple, God will destroy us... Not that I believe a Christian can lose his eternal salvation. What does that type of warning imply though?
     
  5. BornBaptist

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    <img src =/9147.jpg>

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  6. James_Newman

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    That is a very cute cartoon I suppose, but the little man is drawn wrong. He should not be wearing a helmet, instead he should have a fiery dart sticking out of his head. [​IMG]

    Does God ever make a promise then not keep it?

    John 6
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    What this says is clear. Believe on the Lord and be raised up on the last day. If God said it it must be so. Your cartoon man says that this is false, based on such warnings as this...

    1 Corinthians 6
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    So whether the argument goes that if you truly believe you will not continue in sin, or if you sin, you will lose your salvation... both of these arguments equal the same answer which is you have to work for salvation. There has to be a misunderstanding somewhere...

    Ephesians 2
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins
    , hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    John 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    If we have obtained this salvation by God's love for us, it is the same love that He had for the whole world. If by our works, we are able to keep His love, when He had this love for us while we were yet sinners then we must be working for our salvation. Or if we say that it is God working in us, not our own works that allow us to obtain salvation, how can we not boast that God loved us more than the unsaved?[/B]

    The only way to reconcile these two seemingly incompatible doctrines, which are both biblical, is by rightly dividing these as two different aspects of salvation. The promise to believers is to be raised up on the last day. We see in Revelation that the last day is AFTER the 1000 yr reign of Christ in the Kingdom.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    After the 1000 yrs, we have the great white throne judgment:

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Hell is not the final stop for the damned in eternity, the lake of fire is.

    We are told to work for the reward of the Kingdom over and over again throughout the NT, yet we are supposed to have our assurance of ultimate salvation on the last day. In 1 Cor, Paul seems to consider this to be the milk of the word.

    1 Corinthians 3
    1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    So we should be preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Believe on the Lord and be saved from eternity in the lake of fire. Believe on the Lord and OBEY and be REWARDED with reigning in the Kingdom, and SAVED from Hell for 1000 years.
     
  7. BornBaptist

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    Posted Delated By BornBaptist...


    Although, I thought it was funny myself. I didn't want the Board God's to get excited.


    Salvation isn't an open ended gift. Sorry, I'll never belive that.

    BornBaptist
     
  8. James_Newman

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    thats the very definition of gift. God didn't send His Son to die because He thought maybe we just needed another shot to prove our worthiness. We are not worthy, we will never be worthy. His love for us is the only reason for His sacrifice. If we reject that sacrifice as the payment for our sins, we reject salvation.
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    A very amusing post :D ! If you are right, no one was saved until John Calvin got confused :eek: . If that is true, whoever wrote the Bible sure did mess it up :eek: , making it so hard to understand that no one could understand it for 1500 years until John Calvin started having his nightmares :eek: . But don't pay any attention to what I have to say :D , because I am not saved :D , nor are any of the Episcopalians, Lutherans, or Methodists, nor any of our Pentecostal brothers and sisters, nor the large majority of all Christians.

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. gb93433

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    How can a man who claimed to know God ever say He doesn't exist?
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    I do not see the relevance of this question, but the answer is obvious—he could decide that he made a mistake. That is, he could decide that what he thought was God was not God at all. I do not believe, however, that we find anyone in the Bible becoming an apostate and falling from grace from this particular cause.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    Thank you! I enjoyed the cartoon show, especially the truth that the Bible teaches that our salvation is dependent upon our continuing to abide in Christ, not by works, but by faith.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    I have found this to be all too true of almost every OSAS Baptist that I have ever met. They would rather believe in a false, modernistic, licentious doctrine that was invented 1500 year after Christ died on the cross for our sins than believe the true, Biblical, historical doctrine of conditional security.

    Oh! Oh! Here comes Dr. Bob again! I have to run, see you latter (I hope!).

    [​IMG]
     
  14. HankD

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    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    "any man" includes Craigbythesea.


    HankD
     
  15. Craigbythesea

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    "Hey, bud!

    "Don’t argue with me! The facts are irrelevant! I am the one who knows the truth and I have one verse in the Bible to prove it. And no, I don’t care about the fact that I am taking it out of context and construing it to mean something very different than what it really says. As I said, the facts are irrelevant. Let me repeat that, the facts are irrelevant."

    :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Scott J

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    Come on Craig. You don't have to agree but to imply that OSAS believers only have one verse of support is ridiculous. It is also not necessary to take anything out of context to supply proof texts. In fact, I cannot imagine a way to leave Romans 8 & 9 in context and not believe that the elect will persevere.

    I really can't quite grasp how someone can take the first step down the road of arminian reason without taking it all the way to its logical end- open theism.

    If God truly knows the future then no one who will be saved at the end is ever lost and no one who will follow their own will into condemnation is ever saved.

    However, I know that you cite more than one proof text. It is simply my belief that the whole context of scripture as well as the attributes of the God it reveals support a calvinistic view of salvation (not hyper-cal BTW).
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    Scott,

    Thank you for your reply. I did not mean to “imply that OSAS believers only have one verse of support,” but that the arguments put forth by some OSAS believers are that ridiculous.

    I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree. For 1500 years the Bible was understood to teach conditional security. The doctrines of OSAS came into being in the 16th century and very rapidly evolved. Today we find very many theories by OSAS believers as to how one should interpret specific passages in order to continue to defend the OSAS position. All of this confusion, which is immense, is a consequence of taking scriptures out of context and consequently radically misunderstanding them.

    John Calvin did precisely this and believed that he discovered truths in some verses in the Bible that no one had ever seen before. I believe that is nonsense. I believe that God caused the Bible to be written in such a manner that the common reader could easily understand at least the major doctrines like salvation. And we know from history how the Bible passages speaking of salvation were understood throughout the history of the Church, and we know that for 1500 years they were understood to teach that salvation is conditional upon continued belief. Even many OSAS teachers fully accept this as being true, but argue those who do not continue to believe were not saved in the first place. Other OSAS teachers do not accept this at all, and argue that salvation is dependent upon nothing but God’s call. And there are a host of other theories that have been put forth by OSAS teachers regarding these matters.

    The early reformers did not have concordances that they could use to compare scripture with scripture, and all scriptures were interpreted to a very great extent out of context. The early church did not have concordances either, but they had the handed down theology beginning with Jesus, then his apostles, including John who taught Polycarp, and right down the line. None of these people knew anything of the doctrine of OSAS.

    Some will argue, however, that some of the early Christians probably believed in OSAS but all of their writings have been lost. That is an interesting theory. Did God allow hundreds of early writings that taught conditional security to be preserved, but allow every writing that taught OSAS to perish? That would be quite an odd sense of humor!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. PastorGreg

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    Of course you can lose your salvation. Phil. 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing that he who began a good work in you will perform it as long as you keep yourself saved."
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    Paul wrote these words to and about and a particular group of Christians about whom he was confident regarding the outcome of their faith because their lives manifested it. He was not so confident about the outcome of the faith of Hymenaeus and Alexander:

    1Tim. 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
    1Tim. 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    1Tim. 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    This is one of the most obvious examples that I have ever seen of how taking a verse out of context can make it appear to teach something that the verse does not so much as hint at.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Dr. Bob

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    Yep. God lied when He gave me eternal life. It is NOT unconditional (based in His Word) but dependent on ME.

    And if that is true - which it is not of course, it is a lie from the pit - then hell is where I will be for eternity.

    For in me dwells no good. It is either 100% God or Bob goes to hell. M/E or lose your salvation is a 100% works-oriented position. And no man ever has been justified by the works of the Law.

    Eternal security is rooted in the nature of God and it is blasphemy against God to call Him a liar.
     

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