And now for the "why don't"s...

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Deacon's Son, Mar 5, 2002.

  1. Deacon's Son

    Deacon's Son
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    Hi all,

    Since I've joined this board (back in November), I have posted only sporadically. First and foremost I am thankful that the Lord has allowed this forum to become one of education and enlightenment and has, thankfully, somewhat limited the negativity and name-calling to a few individuals. We would all agree that our first loyalty is to Christ, and we are united in this.

    Now, I have noticed a trend here on the "Other Religions" board, when the discussion is about Catholic teachings. There are alot of "why do"s. "Why do Catholics do this?" or "Why do Catholics believe that?". You get the picture.

    So, I think it's only fair we come up with some "why don't"s to turn the tables (in a friendly manner) on our Protestant brothers and sisters. The way I see it, there are some clearly Biblical teachings that are not practiced by most Protestant churches and since the argument is, "the Bible alone is sufficient for faith and instruction", I'm curious as to how we are to know which Bible teachings to follow and which not to.

    For example, to read First Corinthians 15:29, one is left impressed with the idea that at least that particular New Testament church practiced proxy baptism (baptism on behalf of the dead). Most scholars will agree that this seems to be true. "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead ? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" 1 Corinthians 15:29 . Paul seems very clear in his referance to this practice, yet he does not condemn it. If the Holy Spirit, in all His knowledge, knew that we Christians should base the practice of our faith solely in the Scriptures, why did He allow this verse to remain, seeming to okay the practice of proxy baptisms? And, perhaps more to my point, how could Protestants, in good conscience, abandon such a clearly Biblical teaching? What basis is used for not "following the Bible" on this point? That is just one example.

    Now some Biblical practices Catholics adhere to and others they do not. You know why we (Catholics) do what we do. I won't get into Church Councils or the Magisterium here. But I am curious as to how some can reconcile "Sola Scriptura" with the abondonment of these Biblical practices.

    Let it be said here that if you are visiting this board as a "seeker", and some of this stuff is too deep for you right now, then leave it. Don't worry about it. A test on theology is not an entrance requirement for heaven. I would recommend a good dose of Bible reading, perhaps a dip into Mere Christianity (by C.S. Lewis) and alot of prayer.

    Now for the rest of us, who have nothing better to do with our time than to spend it in friendly discussion, here is my "why don't":

    Why don't Protestants confess their sins to each other? (" Therefore, confess your sins to one another , and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." James 5:16 )

    Honest questions deserve honest answers and I hope to get some. I also would like to encourage others to post their "why don't"s.

    I hope we can stay on task on this thread and remember that, despite our differences, we are all united in Christ.

    God Bless.

    IOA,
    Deacon's Son
     
  2. DojoGrant

    DojoGrant
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    I can speak for Lutherans (still being one) on the confession issue.

    Originally, confession was held in high esteem by Lutherans. Although Luther formulated the "corporate confession," he specifically stated that private confession was to be retained.

    Corporate confession is done at every Lutheran service. It is the Confession/Absolution, where the congregation, in unison, confesses their sinful nature and that they justly deserve what's should happen to them, and then ask for Christ's mercy and forgiveness. This is followed by the Absolution from the pastor, and then the Kyrie.

    Unfortunately, private confession has not been retained. Although there is still the setup for it in the Lutheran Worship book, and if you wanted to privately confess your sins to a pastor, by all means, you're welcome to. However, I have never known anyone in my life to take this up. If so, they do it more or less in secret; embarassed of their transgressions. Thus, it's fallen into something that Lutherans never talk about, and it has more or less been forgotten. Of course, Luther took it down from "sacramental" status, so that didn't help, either.

    I think the main reason is because Protestants have lost the notion of mortal sin. All sin is deadly and deserving of the same punishment, and, since it is impossible to recite every sin to a pastor, private confession is not important. If all sin is equal, than that IS the case. Of course, all sin is NOT equal. ;)
     
  3. DojoGrant

    DojoGrant
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    "All generations will call me blessed."

    Why is it that Protestants insist on just calling her "Mary" when scripture alone says that "all" will call her "blessed." You hear "Mary," and "the Virgin Mary," but never "the Blessed Virgin Mary." This is not anti-scriptural, and no matter what beliefs you hold on Mary, this isn't idolotrous in any way. So, why don't you call her blessed?
     
  4. Truelight UK

    Truelight UK
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    Surely they do call her 'blessed', in the same way that the poor in spirit, peacemakers etc. are blessed! The word 'blessed' simply means 'happy, fortunate and to be envied' (Amplified Bible) - (In effect, all she was saying, to put things in more colloquial English, is "Everyone's going to say how lucky I am"!) We'd all agree that Mary the Mother of Jesus fits that description - even that she was particularly honoured by God in being chosen for such a unique and vital task.

    But why the necessity, by transfering the stress to the final syllable, to make this simple - and relatively commonplace - adjective into some kind of religious title?!? God, after all, is no 'respecter of persons' per se!

    And, btw, where, when the Bible refers to Jesus mother, does it speak of her as "Blessed Mary"? Didn't those naughty apostles ever read Luke's Gospel!?!

    Anthony

    [ March 05, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Truelight UK ]
     
  5. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi Truelight,

    Do you see Mary prefigured in the Old Testament anywhere?

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  6. Truelight UK

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    Mary in the OT?

    Never really thought about that one, tho' I guess the miraculous conception of Jacob/Israel to Sarai must be the obvious candidate - even if Sarai laughed at the idea, where Mary's initial query was more humbly respectful, and Sarai's inability to conceive was not from want of trying!

    I know the Orthodox Church sees Mary's perpetual virginity as symbolised in the East Gate of Ezekiel's temple (ch44), tho' I'm not entirely convinced about it.

    What had you in mind?

    Anthony

    [ March 05, 2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Truelight UK ]
     
  7. rsr

    rsr
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    Deacon's Son:
    Back to the point (I studiously stay away from Mary; you're familiar with C.S. Lewis' thoughts on the subject) of confession.
    I think Protestants should confess to each other. While it may not be common among mainline denominations, I think it is more common among charismatics. I have been to revivals that resulted in some heart-rending public confessions; but I don't they they are edifying.
    My own surmise is that an attempt to create distance from the Latin Rite Church (is that the right phraseology?) doomed confession to clergy, and Protestants aren't keen on confessing to laymen who aren't bound by confidentiality.
    For what it's worth, and that's not much ... [​IMG]
     
  8. Carson Weber

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    Hi Truelight,

    The East Gate of Ezekiel's Temple sounds really interesting; I'll have to read about that sometime. I would agree with you concerning Sarai; she's on my own prefigurement "list".

    I would include Eve, Hannah, Bathsheba, and the Ark of the Old Covenant.

    Can you see why I would see each of the above as old testament foretypes of Mary?

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  9. Deacon's Son

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    [ March 05, 2002, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Deacon's Son ]
     
  10. Deacon's Son

    Deacon's Son
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    Thanks for the responses so far.

    Anyone else have any "why don't"s?

    God Bless.

    IOA,
    Deacon's Son
     
  11. KeeperOfMyHome

    KeeperOfMyHome
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    So, Dojo, is your mom a godly mother? Do you call your mom blessed?

    (Prov 31:28 KJV) Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
     
  12. KeeperOfMyHome

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    D.S.,

    I'll just take a quick moment to say that I do believe confessing our faults to one another and seeking prayer from one another is something we should do. I think most folks don't do this, though, because they are not humble enough to do so.

    Julia
     
  13. DojoGrant

    DojoGrant
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    So, Dojo, is your mom a godly mother? Do you call your mom blessed?

    (Prov 31:28 KJV) Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Good point. However, Catholics don't believe Mary is the only blessed person. I never tried to imply that. However, she proclaimed that "all generations" will call her blessed. That's a bold statement. Will all generations call my mother blessed? No, because my mother is blessed to me, my family, and her friends. Mary was the mother of Christ, a slightly different situation, don't you think?
     
  14. Deacon's Son

    Deacon's Son
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    Hi all,

    Okay. I'm gonna try and spark some more discussion on the original subject of this thread, the "why don't"s. I'll cheat a little and use one that I referred to as an example in my original post here.

    It's a plain and simple question seeking a plain and simple answer (or two or three) ;) .

    Why don't those who believe in Sola Scriptura practice proxy baptism? ( 1 Corinthians 15:29 ). There it is, plain as pie; mentioned in Scripture as a practice of at least one NT church. Paul glosses over it and, in this inspired writing, does not condemn it. What are we to do? Why don't Protestant churches, who should look to the Scripture alone as a guide for the practice of their faith, continue this Biblical practice?

    Looking forward to answers and the friendly fodder that will no doubt ensue.

    God Bless.

    IOA,
    Deacon's Son
     
  15. DojoGrant

    DojoGrant
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    Why don't protestant churches see that contraception is wrong? Not a century ago, all Christian churches were against it, and I know that Martin Luther considered it a "vile sin."

    Furthermore, Margaret Sanger, the most influencial person in our nation's history on pushing contraception and abortion, hoped that getting these ideas into the main stream would "undermine the authority of the Christian church." And, as we can see, I know of no Protestant church that considers it a sin anymore, even though they once did.
     
  16. Truelight UK

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    I suspect largely because no-one is too clear exactly what Paul was refering to, going by the commentaries I've seen on the verse!
    My own personal feeling is that it was a practice of limited relevance, applicable specifically to a generation which had many dead relatives who, while God-fearing, Messiah-awaiting Jews, had had no personal opportunity to accept and follow Christ, as they died before He came along. (Tho', on this kind of basis, it could conceivably still be applied to people-groups experiencing their first exposure to the Godspel).

    Of course, the Mormon's still go in for it in a big way...

    Anthony

    [ March 06, 2002, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Truelight UK ]
     
  17. Truelight UK

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    Hannah - definitely; clear parallels of miraculous motherhood (and of one who was to judge Israel too) there. Eve ...the mother of humanity; maybe. The Ark of the Covenant - mundane, physical 'God-bearer'; yup. Bathsheba? Mother of the son of David who inherited his throne, I suppose (tho' certainly no virtuous virgin!).

    Could one maybe include Ruth as well?

    Anthony
     
  18. Mrs C

    Mrs C
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    Why don't Sola Scriptura claiming Protestants abandon all of their borrowed Catholic Traditions - like the Creeds and the order of Worship (liturgy) in some of the more conservative Protestant sects?
     
  19. Chemnitz

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    Mrs C, you make an accusation and then do nothing to back it up. Maybe before you should find out what the teachings are before you jump on them. The Lutheran Church teaches the Creeds (Apostles, Nicene, and Athenasian) are scripturally correct explainations. Liturgy is an effective means for conducting orderly worship and an effective teaching tool.
     
  20. KeeperOfMyHome

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    Dojo, though I do not consider the Baptist church as part of the Protestant movement, I know of many independent Baptist churches that preach against birth control. In fact, I helped write a booklet entitled Biblical Birth Control and it has been posted on my web page.

    Julia
     

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