Annoucement for those in NC

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by GeneMBridges, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges
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    There is a reason I am posting this in the versions forum. (Moderator, please feel free to copy this elsewhere so others can see it too if you wish)...

    This event is being held in High Point, NC until the end of Feb. (I will be leading a group from my church on Feb. 5). I think you'll agree this is a truly once in a lifetime opportunity for most of us:

    You can see what I'm talking about here:

    www.deadseascrollstoamerica.com

    Note: I also understand from the local Christian radio station that once you go to the exhibit one time, they give you a pass so that you can return for free anytime / anyday afterward.
     
  2. aefting

    aefting
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    The exhibit might be interesting but I would go with a great deal of caution about their teaching and book sales.

    The DSS tour is put on by a Dr. Craig Lampe who also promotes his books at this site:

    http://www.greatsite.com/featured-items-and-events/forbidden-book.html

    Here is a small except that shows how Dr. Lampe is just a wacko:

    Here is another. This quote was available online at http://www.deadseaexhibit.com/educational/forbiddenbook/04_FB_Ch04.pdf, but apparently not any longer.


    Andy
     
  3. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges
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    How is this "wacko"? St. Mary's Church in the Abbey at Glastonbury has always claimed this distinction because a church house for the Celtic peoples was built there before the one that now stands in ruins and dates from the Norman era. Rome had extended to Brittania by the time of the early church, so this is not outside the bounds of orthodoxy. There is a competing claim from the Church of the Nativity in Jerusalem, built in the 300's. Everybody is entitled to their opinion on this, especially considering that so very little is known about that particular issue. Just because there were Christians living and meeting from the time of the Ascension until those churches were built, it does not follow that they must have also met above ground in dedicated churches. They met in houses and synagogues. Even today, in nations where our brothers and sisters are persecuted and meet in houses by invitation after being screened in interviews in a public forum (like Muslim nations where they'll burn your church to the ground), we do not say that they are meeting in an "above ground" church. They are meeting "underground." In fact, a great many Christians lived and worshipped in the catacombs underneath ancient cities.

    Prior to the Reformation and certainly during the Reformation this was the case. There's nothing heretical in that statement.

    And many Christians including Protestants also affirm this to be true.

    There is nothing "wacko" here, Andy. The AV 1611 DID contain the Apocrypha. We all know this. The Apocrypha was officially removed by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1885 leaving only 66 books. This is also a historical fact. It should, however, be noted that Johnathan Edwards listeners did not use the KJV text of the New Testament many times. They were readers of koine Greek and followed his sermon lectures from their copies of the Greek New Testament.

    His son, Joel Lampe, graduated from Calvin Seminary, which confesses to The Belgic Confession (1561), the Heidelberg Catechism (1563), and the Canons of Dort (1618-1619). I seriously doubt that a "wacko" would make it through a seminary that confesses to those documents as their rule of faith and practice along with the infallible rule of Scripture.

    [ January 15, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]
     
  4. rsr

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    "In fact, a great many Christians lived and worshipped in the catacombs underneath ancient cities."

    No, there is no evidence for that. It is possible some Christians sought temporary refuge from persecution, but the catacombs were not liveable at all.

    Glastonbury has competition:

    "North Carolina State University archaeologist Thomas Parker believes he has uncovered remains of what may be the oldest church in the world, dating from the late third century, in the Jordanian port city of Aqaba.

    Although other buildings used for Christian gatherings during the first century and a half following Jesus' ministry have been unearthed, Parker maintains these are the remains of "the earliest known building specifically designed as a church."
    CHRISTIANITY TODAY

    CNN also reported an earlier find:

    BTW: I'd like to see the exhibit and don't consider Lampe "wacko," though he overstates the English rejection of the Apocrypha (the British and Foreign Missionary Soceity dropped the books in the 1820s, and many editions before that had been published without the Apocrypha.)
     
  5. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges
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    That's odd because that's not what the historians in Rome tell you. Sorry, I used to live in Europe (and have a degree in European History) and am well acquainted with the catacombs and must disagree. They buried their dead there and were known to worship there at times. They did not use them for regular worship. They hid there, (thus lived for temporary periods untill they could move on if necessary) sometimes in small communities during times of more violent persecutions, which were known to occur then subside. They did not live there on a normative basis just as they did not worship there on a normative basis.

    Films and Quo Vadis popularized the myth that they lived there on a regular basis, but even those that say, "the catacombs were unlivable," in the next breath teach that Christians are believed to have sought temporary refuge there during times of more violent persecutions, because the sites were protected as burial sites under inviolable Roman law. While early Christians did not spend their lives hiding in the catacombs, they did go there to gather in prayer, celebrate funeral rites, create art, and celebrate the anniversaries of the martyrs and the dead.

    I agree he overstates the Apocrypha, but the fact remains it was not officially removed by the Archbishop of Canterbury until 1885. The exhibit, however, includes the Geneva Bible, which, after 1599, omited the books, and the Westminster Confession equated them with secular literature in the mid 17th century. It should be noted, however, that what the British and Foreign Bible Society did was refuse financial aid to any Bible society that published a Bible with the Apocrypha in it, thus fewer Bibles actually contained it, though some did, after 1827, because it was simply cheaper.

    What Lampe is trying to point out, I think, is that many conservative Protestants just assume that they were never in it (the KJV) and do not understand the history behind the books. The funny thing is that Catholics will say that they do this because "it never occurs to them (Protestants) that somebody "tampered" with the canon," when, in reality it is the Council of Trent that actually included them in the canon in response to the Reformation.

    [ January 15, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]
     
  6. aefting

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    I'm sorry if I came across as intemperate. This topic came up in another discussion group and that is why I reacted the way I did.

    The issue with the Apocrypha stems from an allegation that Lampe is involved in some way with something called British Israelism. He has had some association in the past with Gene Scott who promotes some flavor of this stuff:

    http://www.drgenescott.com/dgtour.htm

    http://www.drgenescott.com/thearchives.htm (check Lost Tribes under the Subject menu)

    The concern is that Lampe may be, to quote from the other discussion site, "drawing attention to the apocryphal books printed in old editions of English Bibles and defending their authenticity because they want to build a bridge from that to the idea that ancient Britons (as one of the lost tribes of Israel) used or perhaps even wrote some of the pseudepigraphal books."

    Like I said, I think the exhibit would be interesting but I would be very careful about what this guy teaches. There may be a "wacko" reason for his defense of the Apocrypha. If I'm wrong, OK. Just consider this a friendly "be careful."


    As for the Apocrypha, here are two statements by Metzger and Kenyon, respectively:

    Andy
     
  7. Phillip

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    And many Christians including Protestants also affirm this to be true.

    There is nothing "wacko" here, Andy. The AV 1611 DID contain the Apocrypha. We all know this. The Apocrypha was officially removed by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1885 leaving only 66 books. This is also a historical fact.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Can you please explain why I have a small stack of Bibles sitting next to my computer that were printed between 1834 and 1856 by English companies such as S. Bagster and Sons, Limited of London and they do NOT contain the apocrypha?
     
  8. GeneMBridges

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    And many Christians including Protestants also affirm this to be true.

    There is nothing "wacko" here, Andy. The AV 1611 DID contain the Apocrypha. We all know this. The Apocrypha was officially removed by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1885 leaving only 66 books. This is also a historical fact.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Can you please explain why I have a small stack of Bibles sitting next to my computer that were printed between 1834 and 1856 by English companies such as S. Bagster and Sons, Limited of London and they do NOT contain the apocrypha?
    </font>[/QUOTE]As I wrote above, the Archbishop of Canterbury did not officially remove them until 1885.
    As I also wrote above, the British and Foreign Bible Society refused financial aid to any Bible society that published a Bible with the Apocrypha in it, thus fewer Bibles actually contained it, though some did, after 1827, because it was simply cheaper. I did not write that there were no KJV Bibles without the Apocrypha in them until then. Lampe's position, as I wrote above, is, in my opinion overstated.
     
  9. rsr

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    Do you intend to go and give us a report? Are there actual Qumran fragments in the exhibition? I couldn't quite tell from the description.
     
  10. Askjo

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    Very interesting information that you can view and sightsee is many displays such as manuscripts gone back to B.C. I was there in my hometown last August. I urge everyone to see oldest scrools, manuscripts, stones, etc., It is very fascinating!
     
  11. GeneMBridges

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    Yes, I will give you all a report. :D . I'm leading a group from my church on Feb. 5. (I'd do it earlier, but we have a marriage conference this month, and, if I announced it tomorrow (Sunday) that would be less than a week to sign up to go. I myself will probably go sometime during the week this week or next. I want our members to come away with something other than just a "Okay, we saw this" experience, so I'm going early to take notes that I will use to develop a "study guide" that I'm going to give everybody that goes with us that will have specific questions about different parts of the exhibit and some questions to ask of the curators who are there. Our church turns 125 this year, and I think this is a great opportunity for us to understand that the history that is in those documents is very much our history as Christians, and that our church would likely not be here today if it was not for the faithfulness of God in preserving His word and the faithfulness of all those that transcribed manuscripts, printed Bibles, even gave their lives for the gospel.
     

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