Another Catholic Question

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. Thinkingstuff

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    To those catholics on this board I have another question. I've been studying Judaism a bit reading the Talmud and Jewish beliefs. And something caught my attention. Apart from Moses who is the law giver, the next important person in Judaism in Ezra who re-establishes the law upon the return to Judea. Ezra wanted a radical return to the law and established certain Jewish distinctiveness emphasising the differences between the Jews and the the surrounding Heathen populace. He even was able to get men to put away their heathen wives and offspring from those relationships. Also to ensure what was being taught about Torah was correct is repudiated to having establish a body of oversight called Ha-Kenneset. Or the gathering body which oversaw what Torah meant and how it was to be interpreted, and implimented and reviewed what the Synagogues were teaching. Later this governing bodies is known by its Greek Name in the NT or the Sanhedrein. It was this governing body at odds with much of Jesus teaching and was the body that sentenced Jesus to death. The Sanhedrein by tradition interpreted Torah in a certain way and any way not in accordance with it was not considered Orthodox. How is this any different than the Catholic Magisterium? And how does this Magesterium claim superiority to the Sanhederin?
     
  2. lori4dogs

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    Just before launching into a blistering denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus delivers this command to the crowds: "The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3).

    Although Jesus strongly denounces his opponents of hypocrisy for not following their own teaching, he nevertheless insists that the scribes and Pharisees hold a position of legitimate authority, which he characterizes as sitting "on Moses' seat."According to David Hill Moses' seat was "not simply a metaphor. There was an actual stone seat in front of the synagogue where the authoritative teacher (usually a scribe) sat." The Gospel of Matthew (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990), 310. You will search in vain for any reference to this seat of Moses in the Old Testament. But it was commonly understood in ancient Israel that there was an authoritative teaching office, passed on by Moses to successors.

    "As the first verse of the Mishna tractate Abote indicates, the Jews understood that God's revelation, received by Moses, had been handed down from him in uninterrupted succession, through Joshua, the elders, the prophets, and the great Sanhedrin (Acts 15:21). The scribes and Pharisees participated in this authoritative line and as such their teaching deserved to be respected.[ L. Sabourin, The Gospel According to St. Matthew (Bombay: St. Paul Publications, 1982), vol. 2, 793.]"

    Jesus here draws on oral Tradition to uphold the legitimacy of this teaching office in Israel. The Catholic Church, in upholding the legitimacy of both Scripture and Tradition, follows the example of Jesus himself.

    In addition, we see that the structure of the Catholic Church--with an authoritative teaching office comprised of bishops who are the direct successors of the apostles--follows the example of ancient Israel.

    Historic orthodox Christianity has always understood the Church to be a fulfillment of Israel. See Matt 5:17, Rom 11:17-26, Gal 6:16. See also The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 751 and 761-2 This verse about Moses' chair illuminates why we say that the successor of Peter, when he gives a solemn teaching for the whole Church, is said to speak ex cathedra or "from the chair." Whereas under the Old Covenant the administration of God's people came from the "chair of Moses," Christians under the New Covenant look to the "chair of Peter" for direction on questions of faith and morals. But there is a notable difference between the magisterium under the Old Covenant and our teachers under the New Covenant. The successors of the apostles, and especially Peter's successor, have the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth, and they have Jesus' promise that the "gates of hell will not prevail" against the Church Matt.16:17-19.
     
    #2 lori4dogs, Mar 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2010
  3. Thinkingstuff

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    I think it is a bit of a stretch to conclude from this verse that
    It is clear that in each synagogue there was a seat in which a scribe would teach from. However, it is clearly understood that the scribes would teach from Torah specifically and use Mishna commentary to supplement Torah. It could easily be said that in as much as the scribes taught from Torah obey it but do not live as the Pharisees. Especially when considering this passage.
    Seems to be a stern rebuke against Hillel's hedge of protection around law or Mishna. Noticed the entire passage includes many aspects of this Tradition which Jesus does not in fact seem to support but denounces in the same chapter
    If the Law is the vehicle for freedom then how do the Pharisees "shut" the kingdom of heaven in men's faces? By the addition of this tradition of holding to the authoritative body of proper teaching rather than by the Law itself. Note what Jesus says here
    summerizing the law into principle.
     
  4. DHK

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    Matthew 23:1-2 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
    There is no physical "Moses seat." It is a figurative expression indicating a place of authority, a place that the Pharisees abused. Moses was the "Great Legislator." He was the one who received the law from God and implemented it. From his time when the law was read it was Moses or his representative that sat, and the people that stood. This is the reference of "sitting" in Moses' seat. It is a place of authority.

    Read Luke 4:16-30. Jesus goes into the synagogue. He takes the book of Isaiah and stood to read it. I believe all stood. He hands the book back to the minister in charge of the synagogue (vs.20), and then Jesus sits down, and proceeds to teach the people. They remain standing. After Jesus had finished, they were so angry at him that they tried to kill him.
    Luke 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way.

    There was no literal "Moses seat." It is figurative for a place of authority. And they were not to copy what the Pharisees did in this respect, but rather give honor to the place of authority.

    Today, I respect the "pulpit." But there are many behind the pulpit that I don't have respect for. There are many that preach false doctrine (as the Pharisees do). I respect the pulpit, not the person preaching false doctrine.
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    wouldn't the fact that Jesus was sitting indicated he sat in "Moses' seat"? I get the referrence to the pulpit which is basically what that term refers to in the custom of their day.
     
  6. billwald

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    >Historic orthodox Christianity has always understood the Church to be a fulfillment of Israel.

    And still does. (Far as I know) All Baptists did until Darby invented dispensationalism in the 1800's.
     
  7. lori4dogs

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    Dispensationalism is primarily an American phenomena. You should note that the radical disjunction between Israel and the Church proposed by its adherents is difficult to defend from Scripture and is clearly a departure from historic orthodoxy.
     
  8. DHK

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    Jesus went into A synagogue....
    There were hundreds of synagogues. Everywhere the Jews went they built a synagogue, primarily for the education of their children and to take the place of the worship that the Temple could no longer provide for them. Not all the hundreds of synagogues scattered throughout the world could contain the one supposed "Moses Seat." This is a logical impossibility. It has the same chance as wishing that Mary could be every where and all knowing in order to answer all Catholics' prayers at the same time. Both are equally impossible. The logical inconsistencies in the religion of the RCC are glaring. How foolish it is to believe in such superstitions.
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    Why? Every Church I've been to in the world has a pulpit of differing size and shapes but they are all there. If moses seat was a pulpit why wouldn't it be in every synagogue? I think you logical falacy assertion is flawed.
    Also whats superstitious about Moses' seat? Is there something superstitious about pulpits? Jesus commented on moses' seat. Are you saying its just a position of teaching authority or was there an "actual pulpit" I've seen evidence that there might have been a moses seat or pulpit in synagogues [​IMG]
     
  10. DHK

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    It is just a position of teaching authority. The person sitting on Moses Seat was the teacher. But "Moses Seat" could be in any of hundreds of Synagogues. There wasn't just one "Moses Seat," just as there isn't any one "pulpit." The person behind the pulpit has the authority to expound the Word of God. The person sitting in Moses Seat (in whatever synagogue it was) had the authority to expound the Word of God.
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    Ok. I don't disagree with you about that. And when Jesus was seated he had that authority. So, now that we've got passed that. Isn't the passage Lori4dogs use for oral tradition authority a streatch? And how can the Catholic Magisterium cliam to be grater than that or Talmud since they are very similar? Lori hasn't answered that yet.
     
  12. DHK

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    Lori can't. There is no succession. There was no succession in the synagogues that existed all simultaneously or were extant all at the same time. One did not come from another. In Baptist or Bible-believing churches all over the world who faithfully preach God's Word the pulpit is akin to "Moses Seat." Nowadays we would never call it that. But that is what it would picture. Since the RCC mass has no such position (a place of teaching authority), its hard to see where Lori would claim that in the RCC. The Mass is all liturgical and ceremony with little teaching.
    (I wonder if anyone has ever counted the number of times a change of position one must do in a mass--sit, stand, kneel, stand, etc...)?
     
  13. lori4dogs

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    What in the world does changing positions in church have to do with anything?

    Actually, we have excellent teaching in my church. Our 'bible-believing Church' has plenty of emphasis on God's word.

    I don't have the answers to the questions asked. That doesn't mean they don't exist. I'll do my best to find answers to 'Thinkingstuff's' questions and will respond if I do indeed find them.
     
  14. DHK

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    It doesn't. It was pure trivia.
    No Catholic Church is Bible-believing. No Hindu temple is Bible-believing either. Both are polytheistic. The worship of Mary makes Mary another god. This is not Christianity. It is another religion.
     
    #14 DHK, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2010
  15. lori4dogs

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    Beam me up, Scotty, there is no intelligent life here. :BangHead:
     
    #15 lori4dogs, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2010
  16. Alive in Christ

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    Lori,

    I challenge you to watch the video I am going to link to. The primary topic is the Catholic Churches attitude toward Mary.

    After the opening music, he starts with a lot of introductory stuff in video #1, so if you want to get to the meat of things quickly, advance the arrow thingy to the the 23 minute mark, and then procede through the rest of video 1, then video2, video3, etc etc.

    Click this...

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5574842451171907531&ei=SaqpS9HVKJz0qAO-5M3-BQ&q=Veneration+of+Mary&hl=en#
     
  17. lori4dogs

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    Thanks for the link, but, there are so many errors and false statements in these videos. Talk about a false teacher. He hinges the Catholic belief in Mary as the second Eve totally on Gen. 3:15 then makes the statement about why the dogma of Theotokos
    is so that Mary might be 'worshiped', and that Catholics teach that 'Mary gave Christ his God nature' (which, of course, he is wrong) and that 'we have to check the Catholic right there! And on and on. One lie after another. Typical protestant false teaching on the what the Catholic Church believes.
    Problem is he really believes that he knows what he talking about and misleads people.
     
    #17 lori4dogs, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2010
  18. billwald

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    From what I have learned, every Orthodox Church has a "bishop's chair." This could be a hold over from the concept of "seat of Moses."

    >Dispensationalism is primarily an American phenomena.

    google j n darby and plymouth brethern

    see http://www.plymouthbrethren.com/index.htm

    The PBs had a very great influence on the development of American "evangelical" denominations. The Scofield Bible was underwritten by a PB. Dallas Theo was a PB school for years.

    see http://proliberty.com/observer/20090507.htm

    from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Brethren

    [edit]Notable members

    John Bodkin Adams[35] — General practitioner and suspected serial killer (tried for one murder but controversially acquitted)
    Robert Anderson — Head of Scotland Yard and Christian author.
    Thomas John Barnardo[36] — Took in destitute male and female street children; founded Barnardo's.
    Patricia Beer[37] — Poet. Born into Brethren, left as adult.
    John Gifford Bellet[38] — Prized Classics researcher of Trinity College, Cambridge
    Lancelot Brenton — Translator of what is probably the most widely available Greek-English edition of the Septuagint[39]
    Stuart Briscoe — author, international speaker and Minister-At-large at Elmbrook Church, was raised Plymouth Brethren, in England
    F.F. Bruce — 20th Century Bible scholar and Christian apologist.
    Geoffrey Bull — Missionary to Tibet in the early 1950s
    Wilson Carlile — British evangelist who founded Church Army and prebendary of St Paul's Cathedral[40]
    Robert Chapman — Prominent among the Plymouth Brethren in the 19th Century[41]
    Dr. Edward Cronin[42] — Pioneer of homeopathy
    Anthony Crosland — Foreign Secretary in Britain's Labour Government, raised in Plymouth Brethren[43]
    Aleister Crowley[44] — Occultist and practitioner of Magick raised within the Exclusive Brethren, referred in his memoirs to considering Brethren teachings and practices as essential for understanding his views.
    John Nelson Darby[45] — Famous preacher and father of modern Rapture doctrine
    James George Deck[46] — Evangelist and missionary to New Zealand
    L.C.R. Duncombe-Jewell — raised as a Plymouth Brother.
    Jim Elliot — Missionary killed by Waodani Indians along the Curaray River, in Ecuador.[47]
    Peter Fleming — Missionary killed by the Waodani Indians along the Curaray River, in Ecuador
    Ken Follett — Author of The Pillars of the Earth was raised in a Plymouth Brethren family.
    Roger T. Forster — Author, theologian and leader of Ichthus Christian Fellowship
    David Willoughby Gooding — Professor Emeritus of Old Testament Greek at Queen's University Belfast and Christian author
    Edmund Gosse — Poet, author and critic. Raised as Plymouth Brethren and wrote the book Father and Son about his upbringing.
    Emily Bowes Gosse — painter, illustrator and author of religious tracts
    Philip Henry Gosse[48] — Naturalist and marine biologist
    Anthony Norris Groves[49] — Missionary to Baghdad and India
    John George Haigh — Serial killer[50]
    David Hendricks[51] — Convicted of killing his wife and children but acquitted in a retrial
    William John Hocking — Superintendent of the Royal Mint of the United Kingdom
    John Eliot Howard — Chemist and quinologist
    Luke Howard — Chemist and meteorologist, the 'namer of clouds'
    Harry Ironside[52] — Bible teacher, preacher and author.
    Garrison Keillor — Radio personality ("A Prairie Home Companion") and author; raised Plymouth Brethren; No longer associates with them.
    William Kelly — Prominent leader of the Exclusive Brethren in the late 19th Century
    Maurice Koechlin — Structural Engineer. Chief Engineer in the construction of the Eiffel Tower.
    J. Laurence Kulp — 20th Century geologist. Critic of Young Earth creationism[53][54]
    John Lennox — Mathemetician (Oxford Professor), author on God and Science and lay Bible teacher and Christian apologist. In fellowship with the brethren. [55]
    William MacDonald — Christian author and scholar, author of well known Believer's Bible Commentary[56]
    C.H. Mackintosh[57] — 19th Century author of Christian books
    Peter Maiden — Current head of Operation Mobilization
    Jim McCotter — Was a part of Brethren in early life. Left and was the founder of Great Commission Churches
    Ed McCully — Missionary killed by the Waodani Indians along the Curaray River, in Ecuador
    Brian D. McLaren — Prominent and controversial voice in the Emerging Church movement. Raised in a Brethren family.[58]
    George Müller[59] — Founder of the Bristol Orphanage and a stated teacher in Bethesda Chapel, Bristol
    Thomas Newberry[60] — Translator of the Newberry Reference Bible, which uses a system of symbols to explain verb tenses
    Francis William Newman[61] — Younger brother of Cardinal John Henry Newman. Excommunicated for denying the Divinity of Christ.
    Benjamin Wills Newton — Early leader of the assembly in Plymouth. Branded as a heretic.[62]
    Frederick Handley Page — Pioneer in the design and manufacture of aircraft[63]
    Luis Palau[64] — Argentinian-American evangelist, raised in the Plymouth Brethren.
    Roger Panes[65] — Part of Exclusive Brethren who, while being "shunned" by his congregation, killed his wife and three children, before committing suicide.
    John Parnell, 2nd Baron Congleton — Missionary to Mesopotamia
    Joseph M. Scriven — Writer of the words to the hymn, "What A Friend We Have In Jesus."
    Arthur Rendle Short[66] — Professor of surgery at Bristol University and author
    K.V. Simon - Recognized poet, hymn writer, biblical scholar and a pioneer of the brethren movement in India.
    William Gibson Sloan — Scottish missionary to the Faroe Islands.
    James Taylor, Jr. — Controversial leader of the Exclusive Brethren branch from 1953-1970
    Ngaire Thomas[67] — Wrote the book, Behind Closed Doors, about her childhood abuse in the Exclusive Brethren.
    Samuel Prideaux Tregelles — English biblical scholar and theologian
    Elsie Tu, then Elsie Elliott — A Plymouth Brethren missionary in China before leaving the movement and becoming a prominent political figure in Hong Kong
    William Edwy Vine — Author of, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, and numerous commentaries[68]
    Arthur Wallis — Founder of the British New Church Movement, formerly in the Plymouth Brethren
    Jim Wallis — Evangelical Christian writer and political activist, founder and editor of Sojourners Magazine, raised in a Brethren family
    Charles Gidley Wheeler– Author of The Believer, and A Good Boy Tomorrow: Memoirs of a Fundamentalist Upbringing – Fleet Air Arm pilot, TV dramatist, novelist and philosopher – was raised in the Plymouth Brethren before breaking away at the age of 16.
    Smith Wigglesworth[69] — Pentecostal preacher. Testified that he had received his grounding in Bible teaching within the Plymouth Brethren
    George Wigram[70] — Wrote a Greek and English Concordance to the New Testament and the Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance to the Old Testament.
    Dr. Edward Wilson[71] — Founding member of the Brethren
    Orde Wingate[72] — British Major General, advisor to Hagana units during the 1930s
    [edit]


    > You should note that the radical disjunction between Israel and the Church proposed by its adherents is difficult to defend from Scripture and is clearly a departure from historic orthodoxy.

    Agree!
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

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    Aleistar Crowley? A plymouth bretheren?
    The guy practically single handedly brought back paganism - particularily witchcraft into popularity. It is said he even summoned satan into a house in Scotland. Ozzy Osborn sang a tribute to him Mr. Crowley. and the man died pittifully. Wow.
     
  20. billwald

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    Wondered about that, myself. no one claims that WIKI is without error but it is still very useful. One must have some knowledge of a subject . . . like taking the footnotes in a study Bible with a grain of salt.
     

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