Another Gospel

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by The Undiscovered Country, Nov 12, 2004.

  1. The Undiscovered Country

    The Undiscovered Country
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    Looking through the NT I am struck by the situations and issues which are highlighted as meaning that the person cannot be regarded as a Christian and those where correction is brought but salvation is not questioned.

    Paul highlights a number of serious sins and errors requiring change in the Corinthian church but never questions their salvation. Conversely, he says that those in the Galatian church who are preaching law rather than grace are following 'another gospel'. Similarly John says that anyone who claims to love God but hates his brother is a liar and the love of God is not in him.

    It strikes me that many modern day churches who put people out of membership for many of the sins that the Corinthians fell into but would tolerate legalism and bad relationships between their members.

    Do others agree that this is at odds with the model shown in the New Testament church and, if so, why do we seem to have our priorities so wrong?
     
  2. gb93433

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    In the book, Why Christian marriages are breaking upby Gerald L Dahl he mentions that the church needs to step in when marriages are having trouble. But so often the church treats them like poison. In a Sunday school class I was teaching one of the members mentioned that a couple was having a lot trouble. We set up a plan that day to encourage and help them. Our plan was to get more involved in their life. It worked. In fact we are going to their home for this Thanksgiving. This is now 10 years later and they are still married.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    Paul actually does tell the Corinthians to check on their salvaiton (1 Cor 15:1-2; 2 Cor 13:5). But having said that, there are very few modern day churhces who are "putting people out of the church." Most tolerate way too much in all regards.
     
  4. DHK

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    Legalism is often a misunderstood term. A lack of it is often defined by fundamentalists as the opportunity for new evangelicals and Charismatics to have a licence to sin, and have low moral standards.
    In reality, what most people label as legalism, is actually holiness. A holy person will set high standards for himself, and thus will be perceived by the ungodly as being legalistic. Jesus said: "If any man will follow me let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me." How willing are you to deny yourself?

    Having said all that Undiscovered Country, welcome to BB. Your profile says that you are a Charismatic, and not a Baptist. We kindly ask you not to post in this forum, and those that are reserved for Baptists only. There are other forums open for Other Religions.
    DHK
     
  5. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    "In reality, what most people label as legalism, is actually holiness. A holy person will set high standards for himself, and thus will be perceived by the ungodly as being legalistic."

    I strongly disagree. Legalism is alive and well. Consider the Trustee's wife who scorns the young single mother in church because she is wearing pants and is not married. Consider the churchman who considers CCM and the NIV to Satan's two greatest weapons against the church. Consider the street preacher who stands on the corner spewing venom and vitriol, thinking he is faithfully preaching the gospel.

    These are people who care more about rules than souls. These are the people who would have rebuked Jesus and the disciples for eating corn without washing or for healing on the Sabbath.

    Not holiness by any stretch.
     
  6. DHK

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    Many of the same issues that you just brought up have been debated quite thoroughly, and with no real concensus on these matters. One can say that you have your opinion on the matter, but it may not be the correct one.
    For example there are many that believe that a woman wearing pants is immodest, whereas the Bible teaches women to be modest.
    There are mamy that would not dare to listen to CCM. They believe it is worldly music, and totally ungodly.
    There are many that would never use a mv. They beleive that almost all the modern versions are translated from the Critical Text which has been corrupted. The evidence lies in the many verses that have been left out of the Bible.
    There are many churches that still have street meetings in order to win the lost. Are churces so anemic today that they are afraid to lose themselves and their reputation that they "can't" preach the gospel in public. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

    Your objections are not valid. You are judging people's motives in trying to win the lost, and live Godly lives. The same people may not be setting rules for rules sake. Holiness to them is a real issue.
    I highly disagree with you.
    DHK
     
  7. michelle

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    Consider the street preacher who stands on the corner spewing venom and vitriol, thinking he is faithfully preaching the gospel.
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    Can you be more specific on what "venom" and "vitriol" these street preachers are spewing?


    Are you speaking of those street preachers who are calling to the attention the sins of the world, and need to repent of them? If so, it might do you well to go back and read about John the baptist. He did this very same thing. People must first realize and understand they have sinned, and need repentance, before they can repent and recieve the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and his atonement for those sins.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    In reality, what most people label as legalism, is actually holiness. A holy person will set high standards for himself, and thus will be perceived by the ungodly as being legalistic. Jesus said: "If any man will follow me let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me." How willing are you to deny yourself?
    --------------------------------------------------


    Amen!!! I whole-heartedly agree.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. natters

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    DHK said "A holy person will set high standards for himself, and thus will be perceived by the ungodly as being legalistic."

    I disagree. First, high-standards does not equal holiness. Second, high-standards does not equal legalism either. Legalism is the imposition of personal standards unto others under the guise of them being holy.

    The Pharisees had VERY high standards. For example, they required the washing of hands before every meal. This is wonderful. But the moment they tried to impose this standard onto other under the implication of "holiness", they became legalistic, and were in fact less holy than the One who did not wash his hands.
     
  10. DHK

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    You are inferring that I said man-made standards. Don't put words in my mouth that I never said. I believe I explained myself very well. I was talking about Biblical standards, standards that we believe we can back up with the Word of God.
    The Pharisees put burdens upon the people that they could not bear. Those restrictions were not found in the Word of God, or were a corruption of the Word of God. Most of them were from the Talmud.
    DHK
     
  11. natters

    natters
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    DHK said "You are inferring that I said man-made standards"

    You are inferring that I am inferring that you said man-made standards. ;)
     
  12. Charles Meadows

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    Let's see here...
    "For example there are many that believe that a woman wearing pants is immodest, whereas the Bible teaches women to be modest."

    Pants... Not in the Bible. Kindness to neighbors and strangers. Yes, in the Bible.


    There are mamy that would not dare to listen to CCM. They believe it is worldly music, and totally ungodly.

    CCM... Not in the Bible. Piano/organ hymns... Not in the Bible.


    There are many that would never use a mv.

    The evils of MVs... Yep - NOT IN THE BIBLE!

    Jesus was not soft on sin by any means. But that never kept Him from showing kindness to the sinners. Just who was it who Jesus had a problem with?

    The Pharisees. Whited sepulchres with dead mean's bones inside.

    Does not the indwelling of the Spirit change a man? What are the fruits of this Spirit?

    A love for the KJB? disdain for pants? Hatred for homosexuals? Fear of change?

    No, no, no, and no.

    No one would argue that a pure desire for personal holiness is in any way wrong. But Pharisaic legalism that values the Sabbath over man is not biblical and is SIN.
     
  13. michelle

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    Also, the Pharisees did not have the law of God written upon their hearts, as the saved do. The Pharisees taught the law from the written stone, but it was far from their hearts, and they did not truly understand it. This is what Jesus Christ was telling them and us. When one is saved, the law is within them upon their heart by the finger of God by his grace and through faith, and we are led by the Spirit of God to follow it, and desire to obey it from the heart, without any efforts or thinking of our own. We obey it automatically from our hearts, in most cases once we are saved. If something is in your heart, your actions will show forth that because it is now naturally part of you, to which is what God does to us upon our new birth. It is not obeying the law written upon stone by or because of our own efforts, but obeying the law willfully from our hearts by the Lord's doing and leading.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  14. The Undiscovered Country

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    Having said all that Undiscovered Country, welcome to BB. Your profile says that you are a Charismatic, and not a Baptist. We kindly ask you not to post in this forum, and those that are reserved for Baptists only. There are other forums open for Other Religions.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]A bit surpised to see it says that in my profile. I must have written it if its there but I don't remember doing so. 'Charismatic non-denominatonal' doesn't sound like the sort of phrase I would normally use. Anyway, as discussed on another thread, 'charismatic' and 'baptist' are not mutually exclusive. Indeed in the UK, its probably fair to say that most Baptists are charismatic-anyway 'charismatic' simply refers to being baptised in the Holy Spirit, not any denominatonal alligance. I certainly would find it a bit odd to be described as 'Other Religions'. I thought the 'religion' (though I hate the connotatons of that term) we share is Christian. Having said that, I'd happily put this in another Board. However none of them seemed to fit this thread so I was left a bit stuck where to place it.
     
  15. michelle

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    CCM... Not in the Bible. Piano/organ hymns... Not in the Bible.

    --------------------------------------------------


    Have you put CCM to the test, and proven it by the scriptural truths, and according to it's fruit? If you truly have, you would then see the roots of this tree, and the fruits it produces. One needs to research the the roots of CCM and it's fruits to biblical mandates. Just because God's word says nothing specifically about drums, electric guitars, CCM, etc. doesn't mean that God condones it, nor that we should either. God has set biblical truths for us to know whether something is good, or bad. Do some research about this type of music, and you will be amazed at where the roots come from. We are commanded to prove all things.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  16. Charles Meadows

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    Michelle, Michelle, Michelle...

    And you automatically accept that God condones pianos and electric organs?

    And yes I have seen thr fruits of CCM - thousands of youth dedicated to Christ.

    What are thr fruits of the Spirit? These are essence of Christian behavior. Personal holiness is fine. But if you have everything and have not love then your what? A tinkling cymbal! Being judgmental is easy - thus it's human nature to do it. We must strive to be like Christ - not just talk a good game.
     
  17. DHK

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    So where do you draw the line? Halter tops and mini skirts are not in the Bible either.

    You are right there are also. And if we are to follow the Biblical pattern we would never have any musical instruments in the church. The early churches did not use instruments. That is a well known fact established by history. Not even Spurgeon would allow an organ in his church. He considered it a piece of amusement that detracted from the true worship of the believers.

    Perhaps you need more study on that one. There are really only two Bibles: one translated from the Critical Text, and one translated from the Received Text. It is not the translation that so much matters, but which text it is translated from. And yes, that is a very important issue. I wouldn't be so naive about it.

    It is now who; it is what. Jesus had a problem with sin. The Bible says that sin is a transgression of the law. It also says that whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point is guilty of all. We serve a God that hates sin, and live in a society that not only tolerates it, but has become desensitized to it.

    Toleration of sin is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. The command given in Peter is "Be ye holy for I am holy."

    First I am not a KJVO.
    How about a love for the Bible, a love for modesty, and I never said anything about homosexuality or a fear of change.
    I wouldn't argue with that point. What would make you think that I would?
    DHK
     
  18. michelle

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    There are many that would never use a mv.
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    No. I would not, and reject them based upon the truth God has clearly laid out concerning His own word, his promises and truth concerning them, and the warnings against those that would tamper with them as all clearly found in the scriptures.
    (Deut.4, 8, Prov.30, Psalm 12,119, Matt.4, Luke 4, Rev.22 - and many more)


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    The evils of MVs... Yep - NOT IN THE BIBLE!
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    If God has warned not to add to, or take away from his words, it indeed is evil for one to do this, calling itself the very words of God, and is definately shown in the scriptures (Gen.3). By their fruits you shall know them.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  19. natters

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    Thanks michelle, that's a very good example of the definition of legalism I referring to earlier. [​IMG]

    Also, "CCM" is a very broad genre. Even broader than "classical music" (which also sometimes has drums, etc. ;) ).
     
  20. Trotter

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    But what does that have to do with the original intent of the thread, Michelle? Zilch, nada, nyet.

    Personal convictions are not scripture.

    The original post was on the church allowing legalism and bad relationships while "churching" others for sins that are basically equal. CCM does not fit that equation.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     

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