Another Look At Eternal Security !

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Preacher Ron, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    The advocates of eternal security often cite John 3:16 as evidence that all that is required for salvation is faith. This passage, however, is seen as more than a single event when we look at it in the King James Version:
    Quote:
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


    The "eth" ending to the word "believeth" indicates that continuing faith is required.

    The following Bible events are examples of the possibility of losing one's salvation because of disobedience:

    1) The Story Of The King Who Wanted To Settle Accounts With His Servants (Mt. 18:21-35).

    Note that forgivenesss was retracted by the king because the forgiven man did not forgive the person owing him. If we are not forgiving, the Father will render unto us likewise (vs. 35).

    2) The Story Of The Ten Virgins (Mt. 25:1-13).

    Five virgins missed the wedding feast. Jesus admonished his disciples to be watchful in verse 13. Why "watch" if the feast cannot be missed anyway?

    3) The Parable Of The Seed That Fell Among The Rocks (Lk. 8:13).

    Note that these folks "believed" until the time of temptation and then "fell away."

    4) The Parable Of The Faithful And Wise Manager (Lk. 12:42-46).

    Here we see that a "believer" was assigned a place with "unbelievers."

    5) The Metaphor Of The True Vine (Jn. 15:1-6).

    If one does not "remain" in the teachings of Christ, he will be "cast into the fire, and they are burned" (vs. 6). Here we can plainly see that "detachment" from Christ is possible.

    6) The Disciples Were Encouraged To Remain True (Acts 14:21-22).

    Note vs. 22, "Confirming the souls of the disciples and exhorting them to continue in the faith...." Entry into the kingdom was not automatic after initially believing.

    7) The Brethren Were Warned To Live By The Spirit (Rom. 8:12-14).

    Living by the flesh meant death. If life here is eternal life, then what is death but eternal death?

    8) Gentiles Stand Before God By Faith (Rom. 11:20-22).

    We see that a failure to maintain that faith will cause Gentiles to be "cut off" (vs. 22). An active, ongoing, faith is required to be saved (Gal. 5:6; Jam. 2:24).

    9) Paul Urged The Corinthian Brethren To Run In Order To Receive The Prize Of The Crown Of Life (1 Cor. 9:23-27).

    Note that even the apostle Paul could be disqualified for the prize (vs. 27).

    10) God's People Traveling From Egypt To The Promised Land Were A Model For Us (1 Cor. 10:1-21).

    Many of God's people that had been saved from Egypt did not make the Promised Land because of disobedience. The application is clear. Christians can run the same risk (vs. 6).

    11) Paul Warned The Corinthian Church It Was Necessary To Hold Fast (1 Cor. 15:1-2).

    Note vs. 2, "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory (marginal reading - "hold fast") what I have preached unto you....

    12) Continuing In Christian Living Requires Constant Participation (2 Cor. 1:24).

    Note the phrase, "for by faith ye stand."

    13) Paul Urged The Corinthians To Examine Themselves. This Implies It Is Possible To Miss The Reward (2 Cor. 13:5).

    According to this verse, one can be a "reprobate." That word literally means "not standing the test." A Christian can thus "fail" in his Christian walk.

    14) Some Of The Galations Were Away From Grace And Out Of The Faith (Gal. 5:4-5).

    These folks wanted to be justified by the law of Moses and were declared by the inspired apostle to be "fallen from grace" (vs. 4).

    More scriptural evidence could be given. If just one of the above passages teaches conditional salvation, then God has spoken. For a person to reject this weight of evidence indicates they have an agenda other than God's Word.

    Preacher Ron [​IMG]
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Preacher Ron, [​IMG] Amen!

    Soon, I will post to discuss on salvation issue.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  3. Trotter

    Trotter
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    Ron,

    Not!
     
  4. Daniel David

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    Ron, throwing a bunch of verses together because you whipped out your concordance only demonstrates that you cannot adequately handle God's word.

    You cannot exegetically use any of those texts. You have to pick out one or two verses and then quickly move to the next one.

    If you really are a preacher, I feel for those who trust you. You have no clue.
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    Eternal Security

    Saved means I am not going to Hell. If I end up in Hell (for whatever reason) then I was NEVER saved at any point. If, on March 9, 2004, I am saved (present tense) and I later sin sufficiently and die on May 10, 2004 and go to hell, then it is a bald faced lie to say that on March 9, 2004 I was saved from hell...because I wasn't.

    If you want some verses that show salvation is a present tense experience, read on.

    For a person to reject this weight of evidence indicates they have an agenda other than God's Word
    ;)

    Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    John 3:1-7,36 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again...36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Rom 3:20,24,28 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin...24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: ...28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Rom 4:1-8...8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Rom 8:1-39 ...35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    I Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    (All of Galatians really)
    Gal 2:16,21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

    Heb 7L25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    (All of Heb 11)

    Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    I Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    I Pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    I John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

    I John 5:1a Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

    I John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

    Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy

    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
     
  6. Watchman

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    Artimaeus: Excellent post. Your passages CLEARLY tells us that a person, in Christ:
    HATH eternal life. If you could, subsequently, be lost, whatever it was you had was not eternal life.
    Is kept by God Himself. This is the one thing the other side cannot seem to grasp. It is He that does the keeping and it is He that will get us there.
    Is sealed by The Holy Spirit. This seal cannot be broken.

    If there are passages that seem to be contradictory to the clear biblical teaching on security there MUST be other explainations for those passages, such as:
    It is not speaking of the saved.
    It is speaking of loss of reward.
    or,
    It is speaking of ideals. (The classic example is the, "Ye are fallen from grace" passage. Indeed, if you have fallen into legalism, that is thinking you can earn your way by the works of the law, you have fallen from the truth of grace.)
    God never changes; but, the relationship, after conversion, changes. That relationship is now Heavenly Father-child of God relationship. In the household of faith it does not take a village, it takes a Parent, and, it is safe to say, the best Parent that anyone can have!
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    So, Ron.

    IF you or your disciples you preach and teach to, ever get to Heaven,why should you look for Jesus and bow down to Him ? You don't owe Him anything, do you ? After all, it is your perseverance in the faith that got you there, forget Jude (maybe look him up in heaven and tell him he lied at worst or did not know whereof he spoke, at best when he said the saints were preserved in Christ).

    Why bother to look for Jesus and thank Him and throw your crowns at his feet, you earned those crowns, right ?

    How do you preach the cross, Ron ?

    "Well, folks, that was a good thing Jesus did, you know. Proves himself to be a noble, courageous, obedient Son. Washed us in his own blood, he did, though we need to keep washing from head to toe, y'know, 'cause his blood ain't enough, y'know.

    He was probably already a little tipsy from wine, y'know, when he washed his apostles' feet, and told them, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

    You see, folks ? He said not all. Now, some people outside our church, they say not all means Judas Iscariot, but I say, he meant not all washed. Translator probably forgot to put in the word washed there, folks.

    Anyway, folks, we're like a traveler walking down this hot dusty rocky road totin' 50 kilos of 'taters and this heah nice gentleman on a buggy comes by and gives us a lift. Really, folks, we don't want to inconvenience him some more by settin' down our 50 kilos of 'taters down on his cart and restin' our tired achin' shoulders, do we ? Let's just help him help us and keep on carryin' them 'taters till we get to where we're goin'. Amen ?"
     
  8. freeatlast

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    Preacher Ron
    Promises Of Divine Ability For Eternal Security-
    “…I will give them one heart & one way, that they may fear Me forever…I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.” (Jer. 32:39-40)
    “…& the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.… everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Jn. 6:37-40)
    “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” (Jn. 10:27-29)
    “having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” (Rom. 5:10)
    “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” (Rom. 6:14)
    “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor princi-palities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us
    from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 8:38-39)
    “…the gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Rom. 11:29)
    “…he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.” (Rom. 14:4)
    “our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 1:8)
    “knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.” (2 Cor. 4:14)
    “…in Whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession…” (Eph. 1:13-14)
    “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” (Eph. 4:30)
    “…He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Ph. 1:6)
    “…as you have always obeyed…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Ph. 1:13)
    “But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.” (2 Th. 3:3)
    “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.” (1 Th. 5:23-24)
    “…for I know whom I have believed & am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” (2 Tim. 1:12)
    “And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom…” (2 Tim. 4:18)
    “…I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people…all shall know Me …For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Heb. 8:10-12)
    “you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Pet. 1:3-5)
    “to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ” (Jd. 1:1)
    “Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, & to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy” (Jd. 24)

    Sounds like God does the saving and Keeping. That does not mean that we are without responsibility. It means that together once salvation starts it never ends and no one ever leaves.
     
  9. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Preacher Ron:

    You have really taken a shotgun approach to this topic with your many verses. On big danger here is that you build doctrine on parables. Now I remember in Seminary we were taught that was a big no no. You should never build doctrine on a parable for you have opened the door to an allegorical interpretation of scripture that is dependent on your own interpretation of the symbolism. Your first five 'proofs' are all parables.

    Just to give you what I feel is the best passage to prove the doctrine of eternal security look at Hebrews 6:4-6

    To paraphrase what I read here the writer of Hebrews asks the question, "If it were possible to every loose your salvation, how would you ever get it back? Would Jesus have to die again after he already paid for your sins once?"

    Of God's grace in salvation, If I did not do anything to get it, then I can't do anything to loose it.
     
  10. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    Get real, what did you want me to do? I don't have the time to teach on each one of those scriptures.


    Preacher Ron
     
  11. uhdum

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    Thank you for the Scriptures, Artimaeus...

    I'm going to write those down for quick reference :D
     
  12. donnA

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    Looks like my sin is not bigger then God after all.
     
  13. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    Daniel David
    You don't have to worry about the ones that I preach to, because I preach that they can not continue to live a worldly life, and make it to heaven.

    And that's the truth! like or not, one can not continue in sin and make it to heaven, and I will never preach it any other way.


    Preacher Ron
     
  14. donnA

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    Ron, do you believe when a person is saved they never sin again?
    What scripture do you base that on?
     
  15. freeatlast

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    Daniel David
    You don't have to worry about the ones that I preach to, because I preach that they can not continue to live a worldly life, and make it to heaven.

    And that's the truth! like or not, one can not continue in sin and make it to heaven, and I will never preach it any other way.


    Preacher Ron
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ron I am in total agreement with what you have said above. I am not in total agreement in what you mean by it however. It is true that no one who practices sin is going to heaven. It does not matter how much they believe in God or Jesus, how much they pray or anything else. If they practice sin they show that they were never saved.
    However once a person is born again they cannot ever again practice sin according to scripture. The new birth keeps us from that practice. Yes we are left with the realization of the battle, but we will always win the battle against the practice of sin once we are saved.
    We may lose to individual sins from time to time, but we will never again return to living in sin.
     
  16. Artimaeus

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    You're...
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Charles Meadows

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    Preacher Ron,

    I think there are a number of problems with your initial statement. First - if salvation is a gift from God as an unmerited reward for faith then how can it be easily lost by sinning - since we all still sin some after salvation? I would suggest that a person who "bumps his nose on the altar" and has an emotional experience but is not afterwards a changed man never really accepted Christ! If the King lives in your heart He will make a change in you!

    Second, although I am a great proponent of the value of parables for theology I don't think you've necessarily employed them properly. Parables are simple stories designed to teach simple points. They are very relevant for theology but they are not meant to be direct allegorical examples of salvation. Take the prodigal son parable. This obviously relates to salvation - it shows us the unwavering love and patience God has for us - and His willingness to forgive and forget! But that does not mean that we have to make the story a DIRECT PARALLEL to our salvation. These stories were deliberately made to be simple and teach simple things!

    Think of what salvation IS!! To view it as something you can lose easily by is in my opinion to misunderstand it. If a man/woman is truly saved and the Spirit lives within then he/she will never be the same. Those who you would say have lost salvation probably never had it to begin with! [​IMG]
     

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