Another question for anti-Calvinists

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 6, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Which of you who oppose those doctrines commonly called 'Calvinistic' claim to generate your own spirituality as a Christian? Do you take any credit at all for your spiritual state as a believer? In your daily struggle, do you stand upon your ability to be faithful or upon God for upholding you with His right hand? In other words- if you (as a believer) are weak and helpless without God, why were you able to be strong and faithful as an unbeliever?
     
  2. TCassidy

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    LOL! I see you didn't get a lot of answers! LOL! :D :D :D :D
     
  3. whetstone

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    nope. it's been up for an hour and a half and nothing yet!
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    You said you have another question for anti-calvinists.

    Would you Carefully word "another" (implying one question) question and pose it to the anti-Calvinists? Your leading post contains 4 questions. It is difficult to respond to one question when there are four. A poorly worded post at best.

    Why don't you try again?
     
  5. here now

    here now
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    Wes,
    If you look at it real close;it is only one question.

    Here it is again. Copied and pasted:

    In other words- if you (as a believer) are weak and helpless without God, why were you able to be strong and faithful as an unbeliever?


    BTW Whetstone, this is a very good question.
     
  6. natters

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    I don't venture into this forum very often, but I don't even understand the question, about being "faithful as an unbeliever"??

    I think strength an spiritual state as a believer is a joint-effort, God and I together. [​IMG]
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    How can one who "is a believer" ever be without God? The only way to be with out God is to be athiest, one who denies that God exists.

    I don't think you know enough truth to be able to ask the question.
     
  8. JackRUS

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    What does the fact of John 15:5 have to do with Calvinism? We believe that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy (Rom. 9:15), but that Isa. 66:2 is also a part of it. Calvinism totally leaves this point off.

    We have a free will to choose whether to reject God's Word (John 12:48; Isa. 65:12) or not. If you don't believe me I suggest that you read Isa. 66:3 and 4 and find the words "chosen" and "choose". You might also consider these:

    Acts 13:26; 17:11-12
    Isa. 55:7
    Ps. 34:18
    Zech. 1:3
    Prov. 1:29
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Jackrus;
    I agree good post and good references. Amen
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  10. icthus

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    This is foolishness, as no true believer would take any credit for what God has done for them, whether Calvinist or not. Try to deal with real issues, and not spend too much time in trying to make Calvinists out to be more Biblical than the rest.
     
  11. MargoWriter

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    OK, icthus--and you don't spend too much time in trying to make Arminians out to be more Biblical than the rest. :D
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Margo;
    How do you know He is an Arminian. Is it just because he disagrees with the Calvinist position? Lables are an unkind way of pinning a false name on someone.
    May Christ Shine His Light on us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. MargoWriter

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    I didn't say he was one--I guess it was implied. ROFL But I was just bein' silly. [​IMG] Obviously you guys are going to be debating this until kingdom come.

    My point was, regardless of your stand, we gotta make sure we each esteem others more than ourselves. [​IMG]
     
  14. whetstone

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    i don't really think anyone answered my question adequately. If you can have faith on your own as an unbeliever- do you claim to equally be able to generate your own faith as a believer?
     
  15. natters

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    I didn't answer the question adequately because I don't understand it. Again, what is a faithful unbeliever?
     
  16. whetstone

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    The anti-Calvinist position posits that a person is free to have faith on his own apart from divine intervention because Christ 'made it possible' for everyone to be saved. In other words- we may generate our own faith because we are not totally inable to do so. So my question is: can you (as a believer) generate your own faith- and if not- why were you able to generate faith as an unbeliever?
     
  17. icthus

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    The anti-Calvinist position posits that a person is free to have faith on his own apart from divine intervention because Christ 'made it possible' for everyone to be saved. In other words- we may generate our own faith because we are not totally inable to do so. So my question is: can you (as a believer) generate your own faith- and if not- why were you able to generate faith as an unbeliever? </font>[/QUOTE]Can you quote someone who actually says that you can "generate your own faith"?

    I am not a Calvinist, but certainly do NOT hold to this teaching, though I do believe that Scripture is plain that Christ indeed did die for everyone without exception
     
  18. natters

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    Ah. [​IMG] Then I feel my first answer was adequate: I think it is/was a joint-effort, God and I together - not exclusively one or the other.
     
  19. whetstone

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    By rejecting 'total inability' (as you claim to do) you are rejecting faith that comes entirely from God. You must either say that you generate your own faith in whole or part (like Natters does in the previous post). If you are TOTALLY unable to have faith on your own- then you are ABLE to generate at least SOME faith. If you can generate SOME faith, why not ALL faith? Where is the line? And if you are capable of generating your own faith, why even bother with the Holy Spirit?

    Natters- to say that salvation is a 'joint effort' is the works salvation of every other religion. could you clarify your position a little better?
     
  20. natters

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    Sure. I'll start off by saying that I never said, nor do I believe, that salvation is a 'joint effort', but faith is. We are not saved by faith, we are saved by grace.

    I believe God enables us to have faith, but doesn't force us to. And once we have faith, that faith can grow through the Lord's help, etc.
     

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