Another Question for Calvinists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by drfuss, Aug 22, 2006.

  1. drfuss

    drfuss
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    I assume Calvinists pray for the salvation of their children as we all do. Since Calvinist believe salvation is determined by election rather than a decision for Christ, how do you pray?

    Do you pray that they are a part of the unconditional election before the creation? If you pray that way, do you believe your prayers may change that election?

    Since you believe God decided before creation who would be elected to be saved, is there any reason to prayer for your children's salvation?

    This is not intended for a debate on my part. I am just curious.
     
  2. canadyjd

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    I pray for God Almighty to have mercy on my children, and draw them unto Himself by Holy Spirit, and keep them close all the days of their lives. I don't assume anything concerning election. I just pray for mercy.

    Now let me ask you something. When you pray for your children, do you pray that God won't intrude upon their "free-will", that He will keep His hands off them, His Spirit away from them, until they make that decision to come to Him on their own?

    Since you believe all is up to their own "free-will", why are you praying to God about their salvation anyway?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Stole my thunder. It is a good question which I believe was brought up by Al Mohler in the debate with Paige Patterson at the Convention this year.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. canadyjd

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    I keep meaning to look the transcript of that debate up, and read it, but just never have.

    Sorry about the thunder thing, I'm sure you'll get another opportunity.:smilewinkgrin:

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. 2BHizown

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  6. Plain Old Bill

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    Thanks for the link.I read every word.
     
  7. npetreley

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    I second that.
     
  8. skypair

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    All,

    On the issue of praying for kids -- there is only one sin that is not forgiven by the cross. It is the sin of rejecting the Spirit. It is impossible for a child to either reject the Spirit or to believe on Christ. Therefore, they are held as "just" on account of innocence -- resurrected postrib with the "just" -- able at that time to choose or reject Christ.

    As to evangelism by Calvinists -- Dr Rogers says that they merely "proselytize" -- recruit members. To evangelize would mean that they could turn souls to Christ which they have no warrant according to their own beliefs to do. Think about it -- they can't tell anyone what to DO to be saved. And if they were to DO something, it is not in their belief system that God would accept it as He has already "chosen."

    skypair
     
  9. Brandon C. Jones

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    Well I'm glad Dr. Rogers has everything figured out for the rest of us. Perhaps he has never heard about ordained means as well as ends. Oh well.
     
  10. drfuss

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    Canadyjd Writes:
    "Now let me ask you something. When you pray for your children, do you pray that God won't intrude upon their "free-will", that He will keep His hands off them, His Spirit away from them, until they make that decision to come to Him on their own?

    Since you believe all is up to their own "free-will", why are you praying to God about their salvation anyway?"

    Thank you for responding.

    As I indicated in my original posts, My purpose here is not to debate. I was just curious. While praying for one of my children to accept Christ, the thought came to me: How would a Calvinist pray?

    I don't know of any non-calvinist who would pray as your questions suggest.

    Since you ask me the question, I will answer it.

    I pray that God would draw my son to Him however God would choose to do it. When God draws him to that point, he can accept Christ or reject Christ. God does not impose himself on us against our will.

    My son has heard the gospel during has younger years. Since my son has rejected Christ in the past, I pray that God will bring him to that point again so he has another chance.

    As I indicated above, while praying, I was just curious how a Calvinist would pray concerning this situation.
     
  11. whatever

    whatever
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    I used to reject the Spirit. Now I believe. On what basis is my prior sin forgiven?

    Dr. Rogers was wrong. Calvinists tell people to repent and believe.
     
  12. whatever

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    I pray that God would impose Himself on my children against their will if that's what it takes to save them. Why is that a bad thing?
     
  13. canadyjd

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    Your question implies a "calvinist" would be inconsistent in his theology if he prayed for his children to be among "the elect", even if they weren't. However, I know such knowledge is beyond me. I know scripture teaches it is true, but that knowledge belongs to God, and therefore God will be the sustainer of the truth of His Word.

    I want you to consider your own words here. If God "draws him, however God would choose to do it", then God is intervening in his life against his will, isn't He?

    You said he has already rejected Christ, right? So you are praying that God will go against your child's "free-will" aren't you?

    You want God to ignore his "free-will choice" of rejecting Christ, and give him another chance, don't you?

    You are praying for God to show mercy on your children, just as I am.

    I don't assume anything about election, predestination, etc... I am only concerned that God would show mercy for my children. For some reason, you feel compelled to hang on to the notion of "free-will" even when praying for your children; yet the very prayer you are praying is a contradiction of what you state you believe.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. canadyjd

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    Apparently you, and Dr. Rogers (if you are accurately quoting him) do not know what "Calvinists" believe or what scripture says about evangelism.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  15. drfuss

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    canadyjd writes:
    I want you to consider your own words here. If God "draws him, however God would choose to do it", then God is intervening in his life against his will, isn't He? No

    You said he has already rejected Christ, right? So you are praying that God will go against your child's "free-will" aren't you? No

    You want God to ignore his "free-will choice" of rejecting Christ, and give him another chance, don't you? Yes

    You are praying for God to show mercy on your children, just as I am. Yes, but I believe my son can still have the option for salvation as God continues to draw him. Calvinists believe that has already been decided, i.e. if not part of the elect, then there is no option for salvation.
     
  16. Andy T.

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    I would rather have God save my son than letting him have so-called free will. Lord, save my son! I don't care about his free will, just save him! And really, at the heart of it, everyone prays like that.

    Free will theology does not make God more loving. He creates people and then watches them walk over the cliff into hell. What kind of love is that?
     
  17. npetreley

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    I don't get your point. Is there some advantage to believing that your son still has the option to be saved? Does that give him a better chance? Do you think that Calvinists simply stop praying for their children because they know that their fate is in God's hands and it is already decided?
     
  18. skypair

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    Jesus died for ALL sin. And the only reason you weren't judged to have rejected/blaspemed the Spirit is that you weren't phyically dead yet.

    So they tell people to DO what they cannot, according to Calvin, DO? Calvinists would classify this as "saving yourself," would they not?

    Perhaps you are thinking about the kind of "repenting" that is involved in turning away from known sin per 2Cor 7:9-11.

    skypair
     
  19. webdog

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    The same kind of love that a parent has when their child leaves home and lives a life of sin. Do you stop loving them? Do you intervene by your "irresistable grace"?

    Calvinist theology creates them, puts them on the broad road that leads towards the cliff, grabs a few, and puts those on the narrow road that leads away from the clif....with the full power to save all of them. He then states how just He is, and those he created for the broad road got what they deserved.
     
  20. Andy T.

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    Non-C theology does the same, Webdog. God has the full power to save all of them, but out of some lofty ideal of free will, God would rather see them burn in hell. To hell with free will! God save them!
     

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