Another Verse Where I Think the ESV Fails

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by InTheLight, Apr 10, 2016.

  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight
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    In the previous chapters of Romans, say 3 through 11, Paul just got done describing everything God has done for us. Then there is a call to action for the Christian to present himself as a living sacrifice. What kind of emphasis does Paul put on this action? Let's look at some translations.

    Romans 12:1

    I beseech you therefore, brethren [KJV]

    Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters [NIV]

    Therefore, I urge you, brethren [NASB]

    I beseech you therefore, brethren [NKJV]

    And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you [NET]

    So, the key words are ”beseech”, "urge”, ”plead”. Could also call it begging or imploring.

    Here's the ESV:
    I appeal to you therefore, brothers

    Appeal? Really, that's all?

    Seems to me the urgency and importance of presenting our bodies a living sacrifice is lessened by the ESV.

    Comments?






    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.
     
  2. Deacon

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    This is rather easy to check - no magic - you don't even need to know Greek

    appeal verb

    1 synonyms BEG, beseech, brace, crave, entreat, implore, importune, plead, pray, supplicate

    2 synonyms PETITION, sue (for or to)

    3 synonyms INTEREST, attract, excite, fascinate, intrigue

    Merriam-Webster, I. (1996). Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Thesaurus. Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster.

    *****************

    Greek helps

    παρακαλέω

    1. to ask to come and be present where the speaker is, call to one’s side
    2. to urge strongly, appeal to, urge, exhort, encourage
    3. to make a strong request for something, request, implore, entreat
    4. to instill someone with courage or cheer, comfort, encourage, cheer up
    5. In several places παρ. appears to mean simply treat someone in an inviting or congenial manner,

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 765). Chicago: University of Chicago Press

    The ESV uses 'exhort' in verse 8.

    Rob
     
  3. InTheLight

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    Yes, the English dictionary meaning of the word "appeal" is defined in your post.

    However, the context of Romans is how we are not justified by the law but by we are justified by faith. When I think of the word "appeal" in the context of the law, I get an image of a lawyer politely asking a higher authority to please listen to me. That's why I think the word "appeal" fails the context of this verse. Beseech, urge, plead, are all better words, IMO.
     
  4. Greektim

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    Quite a big fuss for such a little detail.

    Even if I agreed with you, does that mean the ESV "fails"??? Overstatement much?

    The meaning is the same. You may not like the lack of urgency in your mind, but this is hardly room for throwing around the word "fail".
     
  5. InTheLight

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    The ESV as a whole does not fail. However, IMO, the verse in the ESV I cited does fail. It fails to properly convey the urgency and importance of presenting ourselves a living sacrifice.

    Among the major translations, why does the ESV stand alone in using the word "appeal"?
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    The use of the word appeal by itself is a weaker version of that passage. While not entirely incorrect it lacks sufficient emphasis. Had it been interpreted "I appeal to you brothers with all I have" or anything similar to that. A better translation would be implore.
     
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  7. Greektim

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    1) Your title claims that the ESV fails. It makes it sound like the "ESV as a whole does... fail."

    2) Other than the many translations you cited, do you have evidence to stake your claim that there should be a great urgency here? And I don't simply mean context. I mean, does the Greek word demand or even connote a strong urgency???

    3) Even if I granted that "appeal" is not a good word choice, the sense is still true. What it lacks is urgency. However, in some parts of the English speaking world, "appeal" may be extremely urgent. You see, word choice in the receptor language is very subjective. What is urgent to you may be nothing to me.

    4) All that said, I think your language of failure is quite overstated. Even if I were to grant that "appeal" is not as good a word choice as possible, it still conveys the idea. But this is making a mountain our of the grain of sand that makes the mole hill.
     
  8. Greektim

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  9. Revmitchell

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    This post is called "I don't like what you said so I am going to stack every miserable little and petty complaint against your position that I can think of."

    Yes the question at hand is "Does the word appeal make a strong enough urgency?"

    I know of no where in the English language where "appeal" is used in a strong sense of the word all by itself.
     
  10. InTheLight

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    Used the online version of NET found in the YouVersion Bible app for Android.

    Exhort conveys a stronger urgency than appeal, IMO.
     
  11. Greektim

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    I'm sorry you think my post was not well reasoned enough for you. I thought I raised some very valid points. I'm not necessarily defending the ESV but simply playing devil's advocate to get the OP to actually make a strong case for using such strong language as "fails". I think the evidence he used was quite weak. So I was urging, exhorting, pleading, and appealing to him to make his case.

    As for your last statement, that just shows the subjectivity. I can use the word appeal in a very urgent tone. And the word through the history of English was a very urgent word.

    I think the question at hand should be, what does the word παρακαλω mean in this context rather than how strong of a sense do we need to give it.
     
  12. Greektim

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    Well their official online version has "exhort".

    But you ended with "IMO" which makes my case all the more. This is simply opinion! This is subjective. To stake the word "fails" on such an opinion is the height of pride. You must believe your opinion is by far the best and brightest in the land.

    Now I'm sure you don't believe that. But that is what you are conveying in this entire thread.
     
  13. Greektim

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    Rev... you are as childish as anyone around here. I gig your post for being dumb since you treat me as a child. So what do you do? You go ahead and rate mine as dumb.

    Quite mature, sir.

    Since I was actually making an appeal through reason whereas yours was more on the name calling side, I'll leave it to the readers to decide who is being dumb here.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    Ok, who cares what your "tone" is when you say it? And no it has not been urgent unless further qualifiers went with it to place it in a context.

    And that would be wrong.
     
  15. JonC

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    Does the Greek word itself carry that emphasis or is that something we want to add to the reading?

    (Would "beg" or "appeal with all I have" be amplifying what was actually written or does "appeal" alone weaken the actual text?)
     
  16. Revmitchell

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    You know what? The Dumb rating gets abused. Like what you did. My response to that is simply to show how cheap and easy it is to use these negative ratings just because someone disagrees with us. But then you take it further and accuse me this way for doing the same thing you did? There is a word for that one and I will leave it to you to decide what it is and its strength.

    Further, your accusation is false. I have no where called you any names.
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    The Greek word is "parakaleo" which means to "invite or exhort by imploraiton".
     
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  18. Revmitchell

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    So based on this personal attack, which is uncalled for, your earlier post where you suggested you are only trying to get him to make a better case by making all sorts of ridiculous and petty arguments, was false. This is known because you carry your argument here to a personal level and show your true disdain for him on a personal level.

    Thanks got it.
     
  19. JonC

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    The "dumb" rating is itself abusive as it goes beyond the statement to the intellect behind the idea. I wish we would only have "agree" and "disagree" with the latter requiring an explanation. So I agree, it does get abused.
     
  20. InTheLight

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    Yeah, that's it. If I thought my opinion was the brightest, I wouldn't have asked for comments in this thread. And you haven't made a case.

    Why is the ESV the only major translation that uses appeal? Why do the eminent scholars behind multiple other translations not use the word appeal?
     

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