Answering Semi-Pelagianism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Nov 1, 2014.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    105
    This is someone I met in DT Denver the other week and we started to chat. He is a Semi-Pelagianist and I do not believe his version is heresy, but nothing but pure false doctrine like Hyper Dispensationalism, Mid Acts Dispensationalism, King James Version Onlyism, etc..). I have not yet responded to his email, so how should I respond for those of you more familiar with his belief system?

    ----
    Hello John,

    Where does Romans 5:12 teach the doctrine of "original sin" or "inherited evil"? (Augustine used these expressions as synonymous). It was from the Latin Vulgate not the Greek New Testament that he argued that we all existed in Adam, and therefore sinned together with him. According to Greek usage, "eph ho" does not mean, "in whom" as the Latin Vulgate states but "because" or "for that" (KJV). The whole teaching of "original sin" or "inherited evil" is based on an erroneous Latin translation of Romans 5:12. This is the same translation that has penance instead of repentance.
    When Moses Stuart was Professor of Sacred Literature in the Theological Seminary at Andover, he wrote two articles in the American Biblical Repository entitled, "What is sin?" Stuart points out in Article One, April, 1839, :"The very names of sin, in Hebrew and Greek, are all of an active nature...The very verbs which express the idea of sinning are so essentially active, that they have not even a passive voice; I mean there is no passive form among them, when they convey the meaning to sin." When a verb in the Greek New Testament is in the active voice the subject is doing the action. The passive voice is used when the subject is being acted upon. Moses Stuart didn't see two kinds of sin taught in Scripture: original (imputed or inherent) and actual (personal or voluntary). Neither do I. I don't see how it's even possible for sin to be a part of our physiological nature, and therefore something that exists antecedent to all thought, knowledge, action, or voluntary exercises of the mind. I believe Romans 5:12-19 teaches that Adam's offense has been the occasion not cause of all men becoming sinners. I also believe that human nature has been affected by the fall (I am semi-Pelagian). But I don't see in these verses that sin is any thing other than a voluntary act of the will. Romans 9:11 states, "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." In the Greek text, "being born" is an aorist passive participle masculine genitive plural. "Having done" is an aorist active participle masculine genitive plural. The Greek text is clearly distinguishing the act of being born (passive voice) which is a physical act not involving our will and doing good or evil (active voice) which is a moral act involving our will.
    I enjoyed listening to your preaching the Gospel as a Reformed Christian. Especially what you said about the fruit of repentance. I have actually heard a Reformed Preacher say, "If you are one of the elect, Christ died for you." This limits the Atonement of Christ to the elect only (those unconditionally chosen for salvation and irresistibly called). This is the very thing I was taking issue with in our discussion last Saturday.

    Best regards,Gary.

    ---
    He heard this open air message The Burning Hell
    The words he mentions I have preached before, but have learned from my mistakes and did not repeat them in the message above, however I do believe them.
     
  2. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,240
    Likes Received:
    75
    Considering that his argument was essentially "Moses Stuart said....."

    When you reply, you should start with "This guy from Baptistboard said...."
     
  3. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Lets not use confusing labels that are defined differently.

    Instead let us address what Romans 5:12 says.

    So, first off, what does because all sinned mean. Did they (1) do some volitional act which made them sinners, or were they made sinners as a consequence of the sin of Adam? They were made sinners.

    Besides these three choices (from the NET footnote) other views also have merit for consideration. What if the idea of the construction is to convey a reciprocal action. The wages of sin is death, and so if death spreads or passes through all men, then the reciprocal (sin spread or passed through all men) is also true.

    One final point, note that this verse is not well understood, and so is used to defend a minority view.

    In summary, because of Adam's sin, the many (everyone but Christ) were made sinners, and therefore death spread to all men.
     
  4. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,240
    Likes Received:
    75
    Another view is - by one man sin entered the world, and that sin brought bodily death. And so bodily death passed to all men, for all have been made to feel the effects of sin - physical death

    Not that all sinned, but that all were made to feel the effects of sin.

    This view needs no special exemption for Christ, for even He died bodily. Also note that the spiritual death view, with its special exemption for Christ, posits a Christ who was NOT made like us in all things, contrary to Hebrews 2:17
     
  5. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    I do not completely disagree JamesL. Your "made to feel the effects of sin" might mean "made sinners" in that the consequence of sin, spiritual death (separation from God) could be close to the mark. This meshes with "made in a sinful state" which refers to the state folks would enter when they sinned, had they not been made sinners and therefore already in that separated unholy spiritual state.

    In summary, because of Adam's sin, the many (everyone but Christ) were made sinners, and therefore death spread to all men.

    In the phrase "the many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19) the verb (were made) is passive, thus the action was done to the many, making them sinners.
     
    #5 Van, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    The following context makes it perfectly clear that "all sinned" when Adam sinned simply because ALL MANKIND EXISTED IN ADAM AS ONE INDIVISIBLE HUMAN NATURE. That is why it is perfectly just for the consequence of his sin to pass down upon all men because all sinned when he sinned. This was a RACE sin and thus the entire RACE participated in Adam and suffered the just consequences.

    This is his argument when he demonstrates that the only LAW universally violated between Adam and Moses by the entire race so that death is universal is Genesis 2:17 or the sin of Adam - Rom. 5:13-14. This is why infants can die in the womb because they were part of one indivisible human nature that acted "in Adam" and therefore "all in Adam DIE."

    This is his argument when he says "by one man's offence MANY BE" dead and made sinners - Rom. 5:15-19

    Romans 5:12 explicitly and clearly attributes "death" to that ONE SIN by Adam and so to claim it is not the conseqeunce of sin is simply to repudiate Paul's clear testimony that it was.
     
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    105
    I upgraded to OSX Yosemite and IOS 8 over the weekend and some of my contacts vanished. Can you PM me your email again please? I have a letter for a father I am working on. Thanks...


     
  8. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    The argument that the whole race was individually somehow "in Adam" when Adam sinned is pure fiction without a shed of scripture to support it.

    Pay no attention to the magical "context" that makes scripture mean what it does not say.

    In summary, because of Adam's sin, the many (everyone but Christ) were made sinners, and therefore death spread to all men.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,001
    Likes Received:
    46
    God chose Adam to represent/stand in for all of humanity to come after him, so whatever he did would benefit/curse those still yet to come...

    Same way, Jesus as the second Adam stood in our stead before God, so we received what He did to benefit us!
     
  10. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yeshua1 consistently posts unbiblical assertions. No verse or passage will be forthcoming to support the assertion.

    In summary, because of Adam's sin, the many (everyone but Christ) were made sinners, and therefore death spread to all men.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,001
    Likes Received:
    46
    You deny that the main thrust of Pauline justification revovles around Adam and Jesus representing humanity before God, as all are either in Adam due to being found by God still in His disobedience, or else the saved found in Christ, due to His obedience?
     
  12. CatMommy

    CatMommy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can understand how someone would identify themselves as Semi-Pelagianism.
    That the scriptures in the old testament tell us God promised the sins of the father would not pass unto the son, and that each is responsible for their own sins is holy writ. While the teaching of original sin, wherein all humanity inherited the sin of Adam and Eve for eternity conflicts with that.

    Grace however is still a factor in Semi-Pelagianism.

    I don't think I'd condemn the man for his faith. Keyword being faith. Only God knows his heart. And mine. As I judge so too shall I be judged.
     
  13. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yeshua1, will you never learn? Stop putting your strawman arguments in my mouth. Why not support your assertion with scripture?

    BTW, the main thrust of Pauline Justification is the forgiveness of sin by means of the precious blood of Christ.
     
  14. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Thanks for your thoughtful post. Yes scripture teaches God will not punish the child for the sins of the father. But the sins of the father not only adversely affect the father's life, but also adversely affects the lives of those nearest to him. When we sin, we not only hurt ourselves, we also hurt those we love.
    Consider the verses that say God "visits" the sin of the father upon his descendents. (Exodus 20:5, Exodus 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9) When God "visits" the sins of the father upon the children, the consequence occurs in our physical life. For example an abusive father might so damage a child, that the child when grown also becomes abusive. As the twig is bent, so grows the tree. As a consequence of Adam's sin, the many (all mankind except Jesus) were conceived in iniquity, spiritually separated from our Holy God. Thus our condition did not arise as punishment for Adam's sin, but rather as a consequence of Adam's sin.
     
    #14 Van, Nov 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2014

Share This Page

Loading...