Anyone ever studied this?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, May 21, 2003.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    Found this while reading an article. I've often thought about this, but never researched it. Anyone researched this subject?

    What needs to be understood is that modern Israel is not the Israel of scripture, they are not the descendants of Abraham. There is no race of Jews today! The Encyclopedia Britannica (Vol. 12, p. 1054) 1973 says, "The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race."Jewish author, Camille Honig, editor of The Jewish Voice, wrote (Nov, 1953),"It is sheer nonsense, as well as unscientific, to speak of a Jewish race. Jews do not belong to a single homogeneous group."

    Seems that after 2000 years it would almost be impossible for the descendants of the Jews in Jesus's day to still exist. Anyone have any thoughts?
     
  2. Larry in Tennessee

    Larry in Tennessee
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    With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.
     
  3. Johnv

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    Jews are not a race as much as they are an ethnicity. But most Jews are a mix of people. That doesn't make them less decendants of Abraham per se. Kind of like saying that one person is more Mexican than another (Mexicans are a mix of Spanish Europeans, and Native Americans).
     
  4. Istherenotacause

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    If there aren't any descendents of the Jews of Jesus' day alive today, then who are we the descendents ? Does this also mean we are not alive today, or does it mean we don't have anyone to be the descendents of ?

    When it is said there are no Jewsih descendents of His day, what do you mean? Are the Jews who deny Jesus as Messiah not Jews anymore, also the Jews who are called Messianic Jews, what are they?

    Certainly God was telling the Truth when He told Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and in Isaac thy seed shall be called.

    Literal Israel? Sure! That's that nation over there in the shape of vase, next to the Mediteranean Sea, established in 1948.

    Spiritual Israel? Sure! That's that Covnenant people, born again of the Spirit of God, we New Testament type.

    Maybe I'm missing something here, but this doesn't make the first bit of sense, can you explain it a little better ?

    In His Holy Service,

    Brother Ricky
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    When it is said there are no Jewsih descendents of His day, what do you mean? Are the Jews who deny Jesus as Messiah not Jews anymore, also the Jews who are called Messianic Jews, what are they?

    I guess the question is what makes one a physical Jew. If one believes in future fullfilment of prophecies concerning the Jews, who are those Jews? Sammy Davis Jr. was a convert to Judeaism, would he be considered one of these spoken of in future prophecy? Or, only "physical" Jews? Which leads me to: Are there any true physical Jews or has the bloodline been so diversified that there are no "pureblooded" Jews? In many cultures the bloodline has been kept pure, there has been no diversity of peoples. Do modern Jews fit this, or have they lost it through the centuries?

    What makes a man like Zola Levitt a Jew? Is it because his forefathers practiced Judeaism, or because of his bloodline? If it is his bloodline, how would you trace it back? How do we know that his forefathers weren't Turks who converted to Judeaism 1000 years ago?

    If God is bringing back "The Jews" in fullfilment of prophecy. Who are they?

    I think I've just muddied it up more. But I hope you understand my question.
     
  6. Istherenotacause

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    I appreciate the topic, Grashopper, it will certainly provoke the mind in understanding. As far as Sammy Davis, Jr. goes, I would have to say "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel".

    My daddy is a Judaism convert, married to a Jewish widow, (he had to convert to be accepted by the family which is no reason to me, but you'd have to know the rest of the story to even begin to comprehend). If you could only imagine the many conversations concerning Christianity.

    I'm looking forward to all the responses to learn that much the more in this area. I will ready myself to enter into a more in depth conversation with my "step-mother".

    I have a good friend named Brother K. Daniel Fried, he's with "The Hope of Israel Baptist Mission", he is a Christian Jew, maybe if I get a chance, I'll ask him these questions too.
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

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    REPORT: GENETIC EVIDENCE THAT MODERN JEWS ARE DESCENDED FROM ANCIENT JEWS

    "Genetic research continues to provide additional proof that the Jewish people are descended from a common ancient Israelite father, with new evidence indicating the genes of North African Jewry are virtually indistinguishable from Jews from Iraq, even though they have been separated for over 1,000 years...These conclusions are reached in an article published recently in the American Journal of Human Genetics...

    Surprisingly, the study shows a closer genetic affinity by Jews to the non-Jewish, non-Arab populations in the northern part of the Middle East than to Arabs. These findings indicate that the Jews are direct descendants of the early Middle Eastern core populations, which later divided into distinct ethnic groups speaking different languages...It is believed that the majority of today's Jews - not including converts and non-Jews with whom Jews intermarried - descended from the ancient Israelis that lived in the historic Land of Israel until the destruction of the Second Temple and their dispersal into the Diaspora..." (ICEJ NEWS - 11/20/2001)
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    Interesting Report, I wish I had a better understanding of genetics cause that raises even more questions. How far down a generation do certain genetics traits follow? Would a Jew who only had 1/100 Jewish blood in them show the same genetic traits as someone who had 1/2? Seems as though Arab and Jews would have very similar genetic traits. I better stop, I'm in way over my head on this one.
     
  9. Helen

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    Grasshopper, I have a feeling you may be reading either SDA material or Aryan Supremacy material.

    To counter it, please note the following:

    For Zion's sake I will not keep silent,
    for Jerusalem's sake I will not remain quiet,
    till her righteousness shines out like the dawn,
    her salvation like a blazing torch.
    The antions will see your righteousness
    and all kings your glory;
    you will be called by a new name
    that the mouth of the Lord will bestow.
    You will be a crown of splendor in the Lord's hand,
    a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
    No longer will they call you Deserted,
    or name your land Desolate.
    But you will be called Hephzibah,
    and your land Beulah;
    for the Lord will take delight in you,
    and your land will be married.

    ...I will tell of the kindnesses of the Lord,
    the deeds for which he is to be praised,
    according to tall the Lord has done for us --
    yes, the many good things he has done for the house of Israel,
    according to his compassion and many kindnesses.
    He said, "Surely they are my people,
    sons who will not be false to me";
    and so he became their Savior.
    In all their distress he too was distressed,
    and the angel of his presence saved them.
    In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
    Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.
    So he turned and became their enemy
    and he himself fought against them.

    Then his people recalled the days of old,
    the days of Moses and his people--
    where is he who brought them through the sea,
    with the shepherd of his flock?
    Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
    who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses' right hand,
    who divided the waters before them,
    to gain for himself everlasting renown,
    who led them through the depths?

    ...This is what the Lord says:
    "As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes
    and men say, 'Don't destroyu it,
    there is yet some good in it,'
    so will I do in behalf of my servants;
    I will not destroy them all.
    I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
    and from Judah those who will possess my mountains;
    my chosen people will inherit them,
    and there will my servants live.
    Sharon will become a pasture for flocks,
    and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds,
    for my people who seek me."

    various verses starting in Isaiah 62

    Then back to Isaiah 49:14+
    But Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me,
    the Lord has forgotten me."
    Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
    and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
    Though she may forget, I will not forget you!
    See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
    your walls are ever before me.
    Your sons hasten back
    and those who laid you waste depart from you.
    Lift up your eyes and look around;
    all your sons gather and come to you. As surely as I live, " declares the Lord,
    "you will wear them as ornaments;
    you will put them on, like a bride.
    Though you were ruined and made desolate
    and your land laid waste,
    now you will be too small for your people, and those who devoured you will be far away."


    Israel remains. The Jews are a real people, and the Lord knows who they are.

    My apologies for any typos. I'm on my way to see my daughter sing. No proofing this time.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Well, one thing for sure - GOD KNOWS not only who is a Jew but also who is from each tribe!
     
  11. DHK

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    More anti-Semitic bunk. It sounds just like the Replacement Theology that we are discussing in the Other Religions forum. The encyclopedia puts in a secular context, but put in a religious context the supposed church has replaced the nation of Israel. This "replacement theology" plays into the hands of the Muslims who believe that they will be the next nation/religion to replace Christianity.
    DHK
     
  12. Tim

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    How is "replacement theology" anti-semetic? It merely puts all ethnicities on equal footing before God--as Paul (the Jewish apostle to the Gentiles) explains in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians. That the church had replaced national Israel was thereafter a belief commonly held by early church fathers. The anti-semetic charge just doesn't wash.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  13. Istherenotacause

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    More anti-Semitic bunk. It sounds just like the Replacement Theology that we are discussing in the Other Religions forum. The encyclopedia puts in a secular context, but put in a religious context the supposed church has replaced the nation of Israel. This "replacement theology" plays into the hands of the Muslims who believe that they will be the next nation/religion to replace Christianity.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]The muslims very likely will be the ones to replace Christianity, we all will be raptured out and they will be left here to face the wrath of God! :( (for the muslim)
     
  14. KenH

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    Not being a dispensational premillennialist does not an anti-Semite make. ;)

    I have wondered about this question myself. Weren't all of the genealogical records of the Jews destroyed when the wrath of God came upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?
     
  15. DHK

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    Consider these verses in Romans 11:
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    In verse 18, Paul advises the Romans (Christians), to boast not against the branches (Israelites). He anticipates that they will complain that the Israelites (branches) were broken off (replacement theology perhaps??), that they might be grafted in (or replace it perhaps??).
    The reason that Israel (the branches) were broken off was because of unbelief. We are saved by faith. Now be warned. Look at the judgement that happened to the nation of Israel. Take heed and fear. If God spared not Israel in their unbelief, will he spare you in your unbelief? You have had more light, more of the Word of God, than they.

    To continue:
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Do not be ignorant of this says Paul. Here is an important truth. “Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in yet? No. Israel may be blinded in part for some time, but they have not been replaced.
    “And so all Israel shall be saved. “ This is still in the future. Israel has not been replaced. Israel will be saved. It will happen just before the end of the Tribulation Period at the Coming of Christ. Israel has not been replaced.
    In verse 27, it says very plainly that God has made His covenant with THEM, Israel, and He shall take away their sins. Israel has not been replaced. Israel will be restored, not replaced. Those who believe that Israel has been replaced often use such Scripture to justify the kind of thinking that Hitler had. They are the nation to replace the Jews. They are anti-Semitic. The Jews are not God’s people.. They need to be replaced. We are the ones to replace them, etc. It is anti-semitic garbage.

    Here's a good link:

    Error of Replacement Theology

    DHK
     
  16. Dr. Bob

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    My Jewish friends and family all trace back to certain tribes, not just to being "jews".

    Grandma's father was from Naphtali; of course, the line was not "valid" since it did not come through the mother.

    How did she know that? Back in Bohemia she said that every family KNEW. Never did find out if there were written records, or just family names, etc.
     
  17. Abiyah

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    When people get exasperated with me for being
    a believer who attends a synagogue, they like to
    throw that one in my face, Grasshopper. I just
    do not answer it, because people who love
    ignorance just are not crazy about the truth.
    However, I do not see you as asking in that
    manner.

    No, the Jews are very real. I have a Jewish
    blood-heritage myself, but I am not a Jew. My
    husband has a Jewish heritage, but it is not direct.

    According to today's definition, a Jew is one with
    both the bloodline and the ethnic heritage. Today,
    most still hold to the idea that the bloodline must
    be through the mother (but it was not always that
    way). Furthermore, to be considered a true Jew
    in today's Orthodox synagogue, one must have
    been reared in a home which practiced Orthodox
    Judaism, be able to show physical evidence of
    a Jewish heritage (papers), and have other
    evidence. In the other synagogues, the rules are
    more loose.

    The medical field considers Jews to have a real
    heritage, and there are certain diseases and
    noted benefits which follow the Jewish bloodline.

    Science recognizes ethnic Jews with a particular
    bloodline as well, and today, one may have their
    DNA analyzed to discover whether or not they are
    the descendants of Levi. Many have done this.

    Some Jews, like Doc, have their history traceable
    back for centuries upon centuries. They have
    ancient ketubas (marriage contracts) which prove
    their ethnicity as well as other documents.

    My synagogue was recently visited by a Levite
    who is a Temple priest. (Yes, I know there is no
    Temple yet, but there are many who are working
    to assure that it wil soon exist.) He brought
    photos of preparations, brought along some of
    the newly-minted Temple coinage, and gave us
    much information.

    8o) Jews are real, or our God is a liar. We must
    accept one idea or the other.

    By the way, another myth floating about is the idea
    of the "Lost Tribes of Israel" who now supposedly
    occupy Christianity. That, too, is bunk. No one
    got lost; that is merely an attempt to usurp the
    Jewish heritage, and it will not work.
     
  18. KenH

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    I find it extremely sad that one Christian would consider another Christian to be Hitlerian and anti-Semitic. [​IMG] And all of this because one does not buy into one narrow eschatological viewpoint such as dispensational premillennialism, especially considering the fact that there has never been a clear consensus in almost 2000 years of the New Testament church's existence in the area of eschatology. It is also quite rude and very unChristlike to do so over disputable matters.

    Col. 3:12-15 (ESV)
    Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, [13] bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. [14] And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. [15] And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.

    I recently found an interesting website:

    The End Times Made Simple
     
  19. Abiyah

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    One thing I forgot to mention, which was brought
    up in one of the posts here: a non-Jew cannot
    become a Jew, if one believes the Bible and not
    the rules added to the Bible. While a Gentile may
    choose to join a Jewish community in the fullest
    sense, that Gentile will be a Gentile who practices
    Judaism, not a Jew.

    More and more believers are realizing the Jewish
    roots of their beliefs and seeking out Torah-
    observant communities. That is great! But they
    should never pretend to be Jews or call
    themselves Jews. They are believers who love the
    God of the Jews and His Son, Y'shua. Period.
    Wear your tallit, kepa, and tzitzit, eat kosher foods,
    and attend services on Sabbath, have a bat/bar
    mitzvah, but be very very clear: you have not
    become a Jew.

    Our God chose our ethnicity for us. He planted us
    in the families He determined for us; we cannot
    change our ethnicity and we should not try. We
    can change our religions, change our countries,
    change our hair color to a point, change our
    weight, and change our height through medicine,
    but we cannot change our ethnicity. Our God
    expects us to be happy with, and work with, the
    choice He made.

    Gentiles are Gentiles; Jews are Jews.
     
  20. HankD

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    Of course the bloodlines of the Jews have been diluted, whose havn't? The Ashkenazim more, the Sephardim less (probably).

    What is anti-semitism all about? To me it is summed up in one word. Jealousy.

    There has been an ongoing documentary on the educational channels called "The kingdom of David". It is a monument of unbelief in its theology of the Bible but an overall historic masterpiece (imo) of the epic of the "Chosen People".

    Psalm 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
    2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
    3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
    4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
    5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
    6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

    And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    John 4:22 ... salvation is of the Jews.

    HankD
     

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