apostolic succession

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by stubbornboy, May 13, 2004.

  1. stubbornboy

    stubbornboy
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    is their a thing like that?what verses disaprove this doctrine? :confused:
     
  2. DHK

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    No, there isn't any apostolic succession.

    Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

    Paul went on three separate missionary journeys and established approximately 100 different churches, all independent from each other. From the above verse one can see that in each church established he remained long enough to disciple one that was ordained or appointed as pastor. So you have about 100 churches all started by Paul, all having their own pastor, their own congregations, each independent of each other, each one totally autonomous.

    In Ephesus there was Timothy.
    In Crete there was Titus.
    In Corinth there was Apollos.
    In Jerusalem there was James. (not Peter)

    There is no indication of any Apostolic succession anywhere.
    DHK
     
  3. Bro Tony

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  4. gb93433

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    It is a doctrine of the RCC. They have tried to explain the lineage of the pope back to the apostle Peter thereby giving the current pope the same authority as Peter. In Matthew 16:17-19 it is not talking about papal authority nor the authortiy of the RCC. The rock in verse 18 is the foundation--the thing that is solid and never moves is what Peter confessed in verse 16. The church does not depend on Peter but upon the rock--Christ. The keys are a metaphor. The keys are the entry through a door. The keys are the preaching, witness and ministry of the gospel. Jesus gave Peter the gospel to be given out to the world through their preaching, witness and ministry.

    The RCC instituted that doctine some time after the RCC began. Most of their doctrines have been added later. Some as late as the twentieth century.
     
  5. Jude

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    Apostolic succession is a doctrine of not only the Roman church, but the Orthodox, the Anglican, and even some Lutherans.
     
  6. JeffreyLloyd

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    Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus' Ministry and Authority

    Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

    Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

    Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

    Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

    Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

    Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

    John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

    John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

    John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

    John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

    John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

    John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

    John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

    John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

    Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.

    Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

    Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

    Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

    II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

    Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demostrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

    Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

    Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

    Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

    Acts 8:17; 19:6 - Luke clearly states that the Holy Spirit is transferred beyond the original apostles by the laying on of hands, which is the sacrament of Holy Orders, or ordination.

    Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof- text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

    Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

    Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

    Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

    2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

    Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office.

    1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

    1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

    1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

    2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

    2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

    2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

    Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

    1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

    Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

    Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

    Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

    Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

    Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

    Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

    Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.


    III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority

    Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

    Acts 15:6; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

    1 Cor. 5:3-5; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 - shows the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan").

    2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God.

    2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

    2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

    1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

    2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

    1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders of the Church.

    Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

    Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

    1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

    1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

    2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

    3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

    Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

    Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses, and Korah and his followers perished.

    Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of redemption with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

    And that is why apostolic succession is a very real thing.

    Notes from www.scripturecatholic.com
     
  7. DHK

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    The above is all moot. The popes have no real apostolic succession. They are elected--that's no succession at all. [​IMG]
    DHK
     
  8. John Gilmore

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    All Lutherans have the same doctrine: the Augsburg Confession. All Lutherans consider Apostolic sucession a matter of Christian liberty. Some Lutherans retain Apostolic succession, not because it is necessary, but because they consider it a useful tradition.

    Apostolic succession was generally abandoned in countries such as Germany where the bishops violently opposed the Reformation and retained where the bishops supported the Reformation (e.g., Sweden).

     
  9. stubbornboy

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    i ask this question because the rcc always claim this and i have no biblical verses to disapprove this. thanks!!!
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Easter Bunny Succession - is there any verse in the Bible that disproves this?

    I think not.

    In the same way - Apostolic succession is "invented" outside of an "Apostle succeeding Judas" in Acts 1. (So I guess we do have "one" example of it).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. John Gilmore

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    Acts 9:17-19 is offered as a proof text of apostolic succession even though it says nothing about Paul becoming a minister through the laying on of hands by a bishop. Paul, himself, says that his call to the ministry was not of or by man but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) Gal. 1:1
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Good point! Also Paul never says "I am succeeding...Thomas or James or ...." Nor is it ever stated of him. Rather he is appointed by God.

    But in the case of Judas - we DO have an explicit example of an appostolic successor to Judas. This is more than just a little "instructive" if you think about it - given the history of the dark ages. It seems to be appropriate.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. John Gilmore

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    Yes. Paul is teaching us that ministers receive their appointment directly from God not man. Paul states that he did not even meet with his fellow apostles until three years after his call to the ministry: Gal. 1:15-19.

    The laying on of hands may be a useful tradition (to avoid self-proclaimed ministers) but the rite itself doesn't make a man a minister. Only Christ calls men to the ministry.

    [ May 17, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  14. HisMercy

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    John Gilmore,

    I agree that Paul teaches us that those the Lord chooses as his servant(minister) He chooses. This is not what we see at work today. Men say they are called of God because they completed bible college or seminary. That is not God's way. That is why the Lord chose Paul to replace Judas. He is the one who chooses. The other apostles decided to choose Matthias but I don't believe Matthias was the Lord's choice.
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

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    On what basis do you hold that belief?
     
  16. John Gilmore

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    Bible college or seminary is a good preparation but it doesn't make a man a minister. Neither does apostolic succession or the vote of a congregation.

    Some bishops and congregations think they can install and remove pastors at will (hire and fire). But they did not call the minister to his office; Christ did. They have no authority from Christ to remove a minister who has been faithful to his pastorate.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Yes. Paul is teaching us that ministers receive their appointment directly from God not man. Paul states that he did not even meet with his fellow apostles until three years after his call to the ministry: Gal. 1:15-19.

    The laying on of hands may be a useful tradition (to avoid self-proclaimed ministers) but the rite itself doesn't make a man a minister. Only Christ calls men to the ministry.
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is true - however don't discount the laying on of hands by the presbytery. Note what Paul says about it to Timothy - claiming that Timothy received spiritual gifts in that way.

    Notice the warning Paul gives about NOT laying on hands "too hastily" for you share in the sins of the one whom you annoint for service in that way.

    I agree that the calling is of God - and has to be there for there to be any substance - but God is also directing in the practice of laying on of hands - giving instruction about it in scripture as Paul so clearly does.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. John Gilmore

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    I agree that ordination through the laying on of hands by the presbytery is commended by scripture and, therefore, should not be omitted. However, ordination is a confirmation of the call not the call itself.

    A pastor would still hold the office of minister even if he was never ordained by other ministers (or a bishop, in the case of apostolic succession). For example, a group of Christian laymen is shipwrecked and one of them becomes the minister. He is no less a minister than any other minister. He may preach, baptize, absolve sin, administer communion, and excommunicate.

    Although pastors may receive spiritual gifts at their ordination, the laying on of hands in the post-apostolic age is largely symbolic. Pastors, generally, have spent many years preparing for the ministry and, therefore, have the gift of prophecy through the study of scripture.
     
  19. Jude

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  20. John Gilmore

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    Jude,

    The Church exists wherever there are Christians. And wherever the church exists there is the right of calling and ordaining ministers.

    Augustine gives the example of two Christians on a ship. One became the minister of the other.

    Also, when bishops become enemies of the gospel and refuse to administer ordination to qualified men (e.g., RCC) and administer ordination to unqualifed persons (e.g., ECUSA, ELCA, etc.), churches retains the right to ordain suitable men.
     

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