Archaeology and the Book of Mormon

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Defender of the Faith, Jul 11, 2004.

  1. Defender of the Faith

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    I am interested in having a discussion regarding the archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon's claims.

    First, I am curious what some might already know or think they know regarding this. I am a believer in the LDS church and the BOM. Most claim that there is not a shred of archaeological evidence for Reformed Egyptian and the Book of Mormon.

    Have you studied these claims yourself? What makes you so sure? I used to believe such because I read antimormon books that said that and they would never just downright lie would they?

    Looking in the face of the Ten Commandments written in Hebrew and some Greek dating back to B.C. in Central America I'm pretty surprised. Seeing Papyrus Amherst 63 discovered in the 1950's proving that Reformed Hebrew DOES exist 100 years after Joseph Smith could have had a clue I'm impressed. Seeing in Mayan archaeology a contraption fashioned for rolling foil-like sheets of gold for writing I'm stunned- this was even before Joseph Smith could have known about it. Finding swords (macahuitls) as well as other metallurgy among the Aztecs fits it well. As well as an artifact discovered in Arizona that was presumably Cherokee, but was later found to be in Hebrew. The history of native americans being at war with each other's tribes... the Central american civilizations... it fits the Book of Mormon.

    I'm curious what others thoughts on these are. Of course, if you've rejected the Book of Mormon, you HAVE looked into all this right? It might be another testament of God's revelation, and so if you have rejected it, you have already worked out refutations of these evidences of course. Because antimormon authors didn't know they existed so you can't count on their expertise. I would recommned checking into it. To reject the prophets of God offhand and their message without checking it first is dangerous.
     
  2. Jude

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    To embrace a religion that has no foundation with teachings of the Church Catholic, for 2,000 years, to place one's hopes and soul in the hands of this religion IS dangerous. At the end of Matthew's Gospel, Jesus says to the Church, "I will be with you always, even unto the end of the age." Joseph Smith didn't believe Him.
     
  3. Bro Tony

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    In the matter of archeology.

    1 Nephi 18: 25 and Enos 1:21. The first speaking of the time period of roughly 589 BC and the second of approximately 168 years later both speak of animals that were not on the north american continent for over a thousand years. These animals were brought over by the Europeans.

    Archeologist have yet to find any of the "great cities" or remnants of them in North American Continent mentioned in the Book of Mormon. There is no archeological evidence of any of the "great battles" mentioned in the book. When I read about places in the Bible, I can and have gone to those places and seen the archelogical evidence. There still remains no creditable evidence for anything in the Book of Mormon, I live in Arizona and the find you spoke of as being of Jewish original is a subjective finding at best and most credible archeologist who are not trying to prove the Mormon faith do not believe as you stated.

    Again, the Book of Mormon states that the darker skin native americans are descendants from lost Jewish tribes. DNA proves this to be wrong. The DNA of native americans comes from the mongolian people not the semite people.

    You stated in the other thread, and I will deal with it here instead of running two threads, that the Bible has more revisions than the Book of Mormon. This is a false statement. The Book of Mormon has changed whole facts. Never has the Bible change what it has said. Please show me one "revision" of the Bible, remember translations are not revisions for they all deal with the original truth.

    Finally, your book of Mormon can easily be shown as false and contrary to the Holy Bible. Alma 7: 10 states that Jesus was to be born in Jerusalem while the Bible states and shows He was born in Bethlehem. The two are not the same.

    I am glad in the other tread you stated something that most Mormons will not state, that your faith and mine are completely different. I do not hold a Baptist faith, I hold a biblical faith which your church denies. It is interesting that you would refer to Galatians chapter 1 to defend your church because it is that exact chapter that reveals your church for what it is--reread vs.8--sure sounds to me like exactly what Joseph Smith "claims" happened to him.

    Again you are free to believe anything you want. You are also accountable for it. Revelations 22: 18-19 warns about adding to or deleting anything from Scripture, your church is guilty of that with the Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and your living "prophet".

    Bro Tony
     
  4. Gina B

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    As a Christian, I don't back up or support mormonism for a number of reasons.
    I have researched the archaeology of it, but will need to check my notebook to see if any of my notes on it still exist.
    However, that is the least of my concerns and/or problems with the LDS belief system.

    I'll give you a brief list of the problems with it.

    1. Unbelief in the accuracy of the bible

    2. Belief in the infallibility of writings which are not the bible

    3. Belief that nobody in our time can enter heaven without the permission of Joseph Smith.

    4. Statement by a prophet (and they believe their prophets do not err) that Jesus was a polygamist

    5. Belief that Jesus was not God, but a man just like us who worked his way up to being a God, and that we can too. (prophet also stated Mary had literal sex to become pregnant)

    6. State that they are the one true church, and that those who leave it are condemned. (they wanted me to make an appt. to receive my damnation and sign papers on it, btw!)

    7. Blood atonement, in that they believe a man's own blood can pay for his own sins. (ie if you leave the church and I kill you, I am doing you a favor because your blood will pay for that sin and you will go to heaven) This is not stated as a current belief, but it is well documented that it happened within the church and the belief may be found within the churches own documents still.

    8. The secrecy of the temple ceremonies, where "higher truths" are taught. The bible tells us there is no doctrine that is for private interpretation, let all that you do be done in the light. The secret temple ceremonies fly in the face of that biblical advice.

    9. Baptism for the dead to save them, and marriage to the dead (men marrying dead women) in order for them to be called up from the grave. (a woman cannot enter eternity unless her husband calls her, or something very similar to that)

    10. A big hint was when they dunked me three times because not every single part of me went under. Apparently there was still sin in my big toe. LOL! I have problems with anyone who holds me underwater.

    Now, I see that you do not hold much stock in anti-mormon writings. For the most part, neither do I, so I'll give you information that may be found within the LDS church's own publications.

    LDS false belief #1 Men can be gods
    Source: Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith
    Pages 345-347, 354

    LDS false belief #2 God used to be a man on another planet
    Source: Journal of Discoursed, Volume 2
    Page 344 and volume 7, page 333

    LDS false belief #3 God had a father
    Source: Journal of discourses Volume 5
    Page 19

    LDS false belief #4 Pre-existance of man before birth
    Source: Journal of Discourses Volume 4
    Page 218

    LDS false belief #5 God physically had sex with Mary
    Source: Journal of Discourses Volume 4
    Page 218, 1857?
    AND Volume 8
    Page 115

    LDS false belief #6 Jesus sacrifice on cross insufficient for sin
    Source: Journal of Discourses Volume 3
    Page 247, 1856

    Also, in Joseph Smith's own translation of the bible there are a number of things added or taken away. The one that stands out most in my mind is the taking away of the deity of Jesus, which existed always and was not EARNED.
    John 1:1 in the bible states: JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:1 in JOSEPH'S interpretation states:
    In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the son was with God, and the Son was of God.

    Another example of Joseph's perversion of the bible is found in 1 John 4:12
    In the bible it states: 1JN 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    1JN 4:12 in JOSEPH'S version changes this to:
    No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    If it wasn't so WRONG I'd find it amusing that in Joseph's version of the bible he includes his own name and birth in prophecy.

    I truly hope you will take the time to first read the above mentioned references, and then think about how they conflict with the bible. At the least, please do admit that they conflict with the bible, admit that Latter Day Saints do not believe the bible is complete truth, admit that they have writings considered much more sacred and pure than they believe Christian writings are, and most of all admit that Mormonism is not Christianity. It is a separate religion and belief system, and that needs to be publically admitted by members of that church instead of using "justifiable truth"...lies to make others think they are the same to hook them into the religion, later feeding bits of what the "real" beliefs are to the new converts.

    Gina
     
  5. BobRyan

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    The book of Mormon is simply a parody on Pilgrim's Progress. It was written by Samuel Spalding (late 1700's) as an American Tale and then edited slightly by Joseph Smith before Smith published it in the 1800's.

    It carries almost NO Mormon doctrines because Smith did not come UP with Mormonism until years later when he wrote Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants.

    Here is a little secret for anyone kind enough to invite Mormon teens and young adults (you know - missionaries) into your home for a Bible study. When they come up with a single Mormon doctrine - ask them WHERE this is in the book of Mormon.

    It is a fun exercise.

    If you care to test it - take Gina's list starting with #3 on - and see if any of that is in the Book of Mormon. I believe it all comes from Smith's OWN books the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants.

    And no wonder. Samuel Spalding was an early Baptist (or annabaptist) that was amillenialist - as they all were in the 1700's and early 1800's.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Defender of the Faith

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    FIRST AND FOREMOST: I am a little surprised that everything with the exception of the that seemed to be easiest to refute, was simply ignored. Everything I posted doesn't just dissipate or go away. It stands and testifies of the truth.

    As for animals in the Book of Mormon

    As for the remains of cities, several of them have been found. Where did you ever hear that? No, there has never been a road sign that says, "Welcome to Zarahemla" but many temples and sites around Central America have been discovered.

    DNA evidence affirms that they are 95% percent from Mongolians- they also have one Semitic haplogroup in a study taken. One out of five ain't bad. The Book of Mormon doesn't state explicitly that the native americans are jews.

    I don't believe they're jews.

    I believe that they are primarily asian immigrants (the jaredites written of in the book of Ether that traveled here) with very small traces of Semitic dna. The jaredites traveled from Asia to america via the Pacific. Those of Lehi's family traveled via the Atlantic. It is clear that this one family was outnumbered by the vast majority of the jaredites- thus, only a small trace of Semitic DNA exists in native americans.

    The Bible has undergone several changes my friend- what you are intending to say is that the Bible has underwent no INTENTIONAL changes. I think that if you think about what you're saying you'll agree that it has changed many, many more times.

    See, I think this is interesting that you bring that prophecy up. I see the prophecy as Jesus being born in Jerusalem as EVIDENCE for the Book of Mormon? Why? Because He was born in Bethlehem, within the land of Jerusalem. Joseph Smith knew from Sundy school that Christ was technically born in Bethlehem. So did everyone else. It's not like only in this generation has the word gotten out. They sung Christmas carols too- the ones you sing were written before his generation. He knew that Christ was technically born in Bethlehem. So why did he put Jerusalem? That'd be a really stupid and intentional error. Bethlehem is a suburb of Jerusalem. And this is what one might expect if the Book of Mormon story was true- referencing the general land rather than the suburb. So here's the question- if Joseph Smith fabricated the Book of Mormon, why did he intentionally write Jerusalem and how did he know that Bethlehem was in the "land of Jerusalem?"

    I'm afraid that if that were true, then all books aside from Revelation would be false. The canon wasn't assembled when John received that revelation. The book of Revelation pertains to, the "revelation" that John receives.

    Thank you for your kind attention into this matter. I have presented SEVERAL points and I would appreciate it if they were addressed with the same courtesy.
     
  7. Defender of the Faith

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    I've got to go for good. Thank you for the time here. If you wish to contact me off these forums I am there for you. This is my last post.
     
  8. Bro Tony

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    It is too bad Def of Faith is gone. The above paragraph is an example of how far the Mormon church has to go to try to prove itself. He states that Joseph Smith would have to be stupid to put down Jerusalem as the birth place of Jesus, in fact he was stupid. Bethlehem was not a "suburb" of Jerusalem, and there is no land of Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon does not state that Jesus would be born in the "land of Jerusalem" it falsely states that Jesus would be born "IN JERUSALEM".

    As far as the archeological evidence for the people, cities and battles in the Book of Mormon, contrary to what DoF says, not one bit of evidence has been found that clearly proves the claims found in the Book of Mormon; NOT ONE.

    I know that DoF has had to leave the board, I wanted anyone else who may read this to know the truth of the matter.

    Bro Tony
     
  9. Dan Todd

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    Gina said:
    This may well by why Gary Gilmore chose to executed by firing squad - thinking that the shedding of his blood would atone for his sin!
     
  10. Jude

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    hmmm...seems 'Defender of the Faith' didn't have the heart to defend his 'faith'.
     
  11. Gina B

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    Jude, people of non-Christian faiths are not permitted to post on the BB.
    Since you seem interested in the discussion I'll link you via pm to another discussion on the same subject, should he choose to join that one.
    Gina
     
  12. Marcia

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  13. Grasshopper

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    Comment edited per rule 4:
    Non-Christians who slip through the membership applications are asked not to post when the mistake is realized. So...he didn't run.

    [ July 13, 2004, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
  14. Bro Tony

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    Grasshopper,

    First, how'd you pick that name? [​IMG]

    Second, I dearly wanted to debate in this forum Def of Faith, but I believe he was asked to leave, so I don't know that he took the coward's way out.

    Bro Tony
     
  15. Marcia

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    Grasshopper, read Gina L's post. Def of Faith had to leave.

    On the one hand, it would have been interesting to debate him. On the other, I can understand the BB's policy. For a Christian board to give a platform to beliefs blatantly opposed to scripture might be disturbing to some and might mislead others. It seems that the BB was set up for Christian debate, although I don't understand why the Oneness people are allowed to post since the Trinity is an essential belief of Christianity.
     
  16. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    Marcia,

    I am in total agreement. The denial of the Trinity clearly places one outside of orthodox Christian faith.

    Bro Tony
     
  17. Gina B

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    Marcia, quite a few Christians on this forum disagree with one or more beliefs that others consider essential to Christianity. If one claims to be a Christian the discrepancy between that and what they post/state as beliefs has to be pretty severe before the board will reconsider their membership.
    Gina
     
  18. Jacob Webber

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    I remember hearing of a Cave found in southern IL. were in the cave was found Egytian writtenings. I believe Joseph Smith was in IL at one time I wonder if He had anything to do with this or not.
     
  19. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    Never heard of this. You have any source?
     
  20. Chemnitz

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    There is always the book of abraham. Smith supposedly translated it from some papayri that this salesman brought from egypt. Well they later found them in a musuem and retranslated them. It wasn't the book of abraham it was a document describing burial rights.
     

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