Are All Men Drawn Equally?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Nicholas25, Dec 21, 2010.

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  1. Nicholas25

    Nicholas25
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    John 6:44A says, 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

    Are all men drawn equally? I stated in another thread that I do not think I could have refused the drawing power of God. Are some never convicted of sin? There are some people (most people) who seem as if God has never convicted them. Obviously this is a question for those who are not Reformed.
     
  2. Allan

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    I just wrote this in another thread which spoke on Romans 1.. I will post it here.
    Yes. God draws/calls all men equally.

    Not meaning to intrude but something to consider on that Romans 1 passage.

    Note that it states quite plainly in verse 19 that though creation shows these truths concerning God (and they know these truths, per verse 18), it is God 'who is revealing himself' to man and not man just coming to an intellectual understanding of God. Thus you have God working upon all men everywhere to reveal Himself.

    And if you will also note that those things verse 18-32 declare that as men come to know these truths (sin, righteousness, and His judgment to come) they are spiritual truths that can ONLY be known/understood by the revelation of God to man. Scripture via Christ Jesus tells us that the Spirit will come and rebuke the world of sin, righteousness, and the Judgment to come. These are things man can NOT come to understand on his own but must be revealed to Him by God.. and is exactly what Rom 1:19 states

    Thus you see plainly in Romans 1 God is at work revealing Himself and offering the truth EVEN to those who would not and will not believe. Note that scripture states He gave them over.. meaning He was doing and/or offering to them something they refused.. and left them be in their choice.

    Now what must be dealt with are 3 things.. 1) what was he offering to them, and 2) why was He dealing with them AND revealing spiritual truths to those who Nwould never believe, and 3) How could He offer them salvation if He made a way for them? This last point is clear regarding what the truth leads to that they rejected, because in their rejection God gave them over to their sins and they were condemned. (Note 2 Thes 10-12 speaks to the same thing)

    You can note the same thing later on in chapter 10 where God is reaching out toward those who will never receive Him:
    What is very interesting about this verse is that you see it early in scripture in Proverbs 1 where God states - He called and they refused, He reaches out and they will not come
    Note that Paul is partially quoting this passage.

    You will also note the author of Hebrew expressing this same view of God reaching and revealing (thus calling out) to all men.
    Is it not an odd thing to hear him state - if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart.

    Anyway.. just some snack food for thought - nothing more
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    No...all men are not drawn by God equally.When Jesus died on the cross there where people who lived and died without knowing about Jesus.
    there are people in the world that do not know about Jesus today, that is why missionaries go into all the world.

    Nicholas ,,read this if you get a chance
    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

    God reveals himself in nature and the consciece, but this is not enough to effext salvation...it just holds men accountable to Him.
    The drawing of Jn 6:44 is effectual.
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Dec 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2010
  4. Luke2427

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    You didn't answer the question. The question was not does God deal with all men. The question was- does God draw all men EQUALLY.

    None of the verses you provided even addressed this question.

    It is illogical to hold to ALL of the following "non-cal" premises.

    1- God draws all men equally

    2- Some come and some don't

    3- All men are equally depraved

    If God draws all men equally and some come and others don't- what was the difference between those who come and those who don't?

    The only answer is that some are less depraved or are somehow BETTER than others.

    They must be better morally or intellectually or in SOME way.

    So the "non-cal" doctrine says the BETTER ones go to heaven and the LESSER ones go to hell.

    What is the alternative?


    Of course the Bible does NOT teach that God draws all men EQUALLY- it does not teach it ANYWHERE.

    That is nothing more than an inference that "non-cals" draw, not from the Bible, but from their man made doctrines.
     
  5. BobinKy

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    Yes, God draws all persons equally.

    "For God does not show favoritism." (Rom. 2:11; NIV 1984)

    "For God shows no partiality." (Rom. 2:11; NRSV)

    "For there is no respect of persons with God." (Rom. 2:11; KJB)​

    ...Bob
     
    #5 BobinKy, Dec 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2010
  6. convicted1

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    HERE, HERE!!! WOOOO!!! HOOOO!!! Them are shoutin' words!!!:thumbs::applause:
     
  7. Luke2427

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    These verses do not teach that God draws all men equally.

    They don't mean that God NEVER shows ANY partiality to ANYbody- period.

    They simply do not mean that.

    God is partial to his own people. We see that in the electing of Israel over all the other tribes of the earth.

    Even Arminians see it in his willingness to save those who believe and eternally damn those who do not.

    It doesn't get any more partial than taking some to heaven and sending others to hell.

    The verses you quote simply mean that God is not, in this age, partial to any particular nationality, like the Jews, or sex . He saves from the Greeks and the barbarians, etc...
     
  8. Luke2427

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    They are, Brother Willis- but only if you understand them correctly.

    I think I explained them correctly in post 7.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Bro Luke,

    I guess we look at the same verses from different sides of the fence, I guess. I do believe that God draws all mean the same, however,not all that are called, come. I love you, Brother, and again, I pray that God blesses you and your whole family a very Merry CHRISTmas, and a Happy New Year!! :thumbs: :thumbs:

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  10. Luke2427

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    You too, Bud!
     
  11. quantumfaith

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    Nice Post Allan. Some excellent and insightful observations.
     
  12. Old Union Brother

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    What about these scriptures and the words that I boldfaced and defined:

    (Act 10:34) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    (Act 10:35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    perceive(G2638) to take eagerly, that is, seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively): - apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-) take.

    no (G3756) A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but

    respector of persons (G4381) an accepter of a face (individual), that is, (specifically) one exhibiting partiality: - respecter of persons.

    every (G3956) Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

    nation (G1484) Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

    Does not these scriptures show that God Deals equally with man(or woman)
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    Just a couple of points:

    1. The term "equally": In mathematics being "equal" means in all ways exactly the same, although even in mathematics we often use it "loosely" for matters of convenience. "Equivalent" might be the better term, as it implies "equal in value, content......etc.

    2. How could we (as men) even begin to honestly KNOW the answer to this question? We (you and I) have absolutely no way of knowing all states and all conditions of each and every mans heart at any or all times t. :)

    God is the ONLY one able to look upon the hearts of men, and really KNOW what thoughts, battles etc. are waging within the life of a man.

    Yes, I cast my vote that God calls all men equivalently. If not, then in my estimation he violates any scripture which states or implies that He is impartial.
     
  14. Old Union Brother

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup: I like your thinking.
     
  15. Rippon

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    Why did God choose only Israel --out of all the other nations? Yes, because He has the right -- the prerogative to do so. He had the perfect right to choose whomever He so desired from before the foundation of the world as well. Only particular ones are called -- check out Romans 8:28-30 sometime.
     
  16. quantumfaith

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    Well, remember, He chose a MAN, who was to become a nation. As from I can glean, he used that NATION to be a light to the world, a purpose of which they failed miserably. That "role" for Israel brought special benefits and enormous responsibilities, ie, the covenants. Why he chose Abraham, only He knows. I am fully convinced, that throughout redemptive history, God has specifically selected certain individuals for specific roles in His design.

    Why establish a nation (group of people) to be light to the world? I think to reveal Himself to the world as a whole. Could God do it otherwise, most certainly, but, so far as we know (is revealed) He has chosen to use man to reveal himself to man.

    No one, NO ONE had ever asserted that God does not have the perogative to do however He pleases. NO ONE!
     
  17. Luke2427

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    No sir, they don't.

    We KNOW that God does not deal equally with men. For about two thousand years God elected to bestow special favor on Israel. He did not show the same kind of favor to Edom.

    Now he shows special favor to those who believe- he takes them to heaven and sends the rest to hell.

    That is not equal treatment.

    Those verses simply mean that God does not just deal with people based primarily on their race (Jews) in this age. He saves Greeks and Barbarians and Americans.

    The question is not does god LOVE all people.

    The question is does he draw all to himself equally- the answer is plainly- no.

    That is not to say that he does not deal with all men. THat is not to say that he does not reveal himself to all men. But it simply means what we KNOW is true- that God does not draw all men equally.

    There is not a verse of Scripture in the Bible that teaches either that God is obligated to draw all men equally or that he DOES draw them equally.

    It is an inference we make from a theology formed to be more suitable to our human palate. We ARE humans and we find the idea that some humans perish very hard.

    We think of these things in human perspectives- this clouds our discernment of Scripture.

    But Scripture is clear.

    God said, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated."

    Jesus said, "My SHEEP hear my voice and THEY follow me."

    Paul said, "Those he called he justified..."

    There is a call that is effectual that results in justification. If EVERYBODY got THAT call- everybody would be justified for it says THOSE he called he justified.

    Everybody may get some kind of call- but only the elect, the sheep, hear his voice and follow him- only the elect of God get the call that ENSURES justification.

    Does the Bible teach that there is an effectual call? Yes. "THOSE he called, he justified..."
     
  18. Luke2427

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    What verses imply that?

    The only ones presented I believe are the only ones that COULD be presented and they clearly refer to the fact that God no longer deals with men based on whether or not they are Jews. God does not show respect to the Jews but saves the Greek, Barbarians, etc...

    What verses do you have that imply that God is impartial.

    And even if he WERE impartial- it simply means that God does not put his favor upon people based on any quality that they have in particular that makes him save them above others. If that is what you mean by impartial then I am in total agreement.

    Of course the "non-cal" position teaches that God DOES put his favor upon some above others. he does so based on their willingness to choose him and on their faith. These are things in them that cause God to choose them which makes God partial to these people who have faith and a will to serve Christ. God lets the rest go to hell. Those who mysteriously have what the lost never get, a will to love God and faith, they are shown partiality by God.

    The only answer to that that lets God remain impartial is that the faith and will they have toward God was not something in them that caused God to save them over their fellow man. But rather that the faith and will they have toward God was a gift from God. They were no better than their peers.

    The Arminians teach that the best of us morally and intellectually go to heaven while the rest go to hell. The best of us are better because they have a will less depraved and more inclined to serve Christ and they have a mind smart enough to choose Christ while the rest are less intelligent. Those who are less depraved and more intelligent get shown partiality by God.

    That is what YOUR system teaches, is it not?
     
  19. Old Union Brother

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    A question:

    Who gets the call the inner man or the outer man? I think that this may be the essence of this "debate".

    And a comment
    Please do not destroy this debate by labeling calvin and arminians without knowing.
     
  20. glfredrick

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    It is difficult to get around the issue of God's election in Scripture. Quantum touched on this above, with the example of God calling Abram to be the one who would father a great nation of God's people. We see God's election process over and over in the Scriptures, "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated..."

    Romans 1 indicates that we are equally sinful (as do other passages in Scripture) and additionally, Romans 1 indicates that the penalty for sin (unless God draws and intervenes) is to be allowed to sin all the more. We often think otherwise about sin, feeling that God will judge sinners and let believers off the hook. Biblically, this is almost exactly the opposite of what is true. God will judge and discipline His own, but allow sinners to continue in their sin -- they being judged already.

    I see in these two contrasting concepts the fact that we all know that we are sinners -- and there is the non-discrimination aspect. We're all in the same boat -- there are no natural "righteous" men that got that way on their own merits. Conversely, God draws (elects) some to whom He pours out His grace and they are made new creatures, capable of righteousness, first imputed by Christ, and through the process of bending the moral will to that of Christ, by the process of sanctification as well.

    Does God draw equally? In some ways, I would say that the knowledge of God is equally placed in all humans, for we are created in the image of God and even in our cursed and sinful state, we have a tiny remnant of that image that points to God equally. But the salvific draw of God is not equal at all -- it is for the elect, who are "effectually called."
     
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