Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 2 Timothy2:1-4, May 5, 2007.
Agreed. They are not the same and any muslims now a believer in Christ Jesus will tell you so. And so will any christian who has studied even minimully the religion of Islam can say without doubt - that two equate our God as being the same God is blasphemous.
1- Allah - the moon God in line with hundreds of others before their reformation.
a.- YHWH - Supreme God never being beside any other
2. - Muhammad is Allah's prophet and Jesus is second to him
a. - Jesus is the the Great Prophet who is God Himself.
3. - They have the Koran, which is a complete contradiction to most scripture of the Holy Bible as well as itself in some places. And was written by one man.
a. - We have a book with 66 different books and just as many authors, written well over a thousands years time, and never contradicts itself.
Should I continue.
Allah is the Aribic moon God and is the same reason they have the moon as their national symbol. He was one of their hundreds at one time but still the most powerful God of them all. That changed (shortly after his studying of Christianity and finding all its aspects to his liking) he went home and Muhammad after fasting and sitting in a cave praying to his god, an angel appeared that he himself thought was Satan before him. He ran home and told his wife what happened who in turn said he was mistaken and that it was the Arch-Angel Gabriel who had come to him. He then went (some time after his multiple visits from the spirit and writing even though he could not write ) on a crusade other throwing and destroying all other gods in his land but the One supreme god of his gods - Allah. And did it to, by killing everyone who wouldn't comform.
Correct....but here we go again. There are some people here who will debate this issue no matter how much evidence refutes them or how many times this has been discussed before.....:sleeping_2:
And the reason for this debte is :
Because there are those who want to attempt to convert Christians. Which is emulated on this board.
From the same article
The well-known Middle East scholar H.A.R. Gibb has pointed out that the reason that Muhammad never had to explain who Allah was in the Quran is that his listeners had already heard about Allah long before Muhammad was ever born (Mohammedanism: An Historical Survey, New York: Mentor Books, 1955, p.38).
Dr. Arthur Jeffery, one of the foremost Western Islamic scholars in modern times and professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies at Columbia University, notes:
"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa" (Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 85).
The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic. (There is an interesting discussion of the origins of Allah, in "Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190).
Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326, T & T Clark, states:
'"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their [Arabs'] peculiar God. '
According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:
'"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel' (Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979).
For those who find it hard to believe that Allah was a pagan name for a peculiar pagan Arabian deity in pre-Islamic times, the following quotations may be helpful:
"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643).
"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).
"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:406, ed. Gibb).
"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971).
"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983).
"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, I:326, Hastings).
To the testimony of the above standard reference works, we add those of such scholars as Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University who has stated:
"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, The Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p. 102).
Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments:
"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 31).
Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god." In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. vii. Also see his article, "Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40).
Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York, Barrons, 1987, p. 28).
According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Ba-al, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabruck: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p. 36).
So are we saying we agree??
No, Allah and YHWY are not one and the same, just different names.
If you are asking me I am bit surprised that would be a question. But of course.
Allah simply means "god." It is found in any Arabic Bible. Of a necessity, one must use the word "allah" when speaking to an Arabic speaking person and using his Bible. You can't dismiss the word. It is in his Bible. It means God.
It is Islam that has given this name "god" a different meaning.
In the same way one might be asking:
Do you believe in the god of the J.W.'s?
Do you believe in the god of the Mormons?
Do you believe in any of the various gods of the Hindus?
The only God that I believe is the God of the Bible as He is defined in the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, the second person of the triuned Godhead.
And to be specific that is not the god of the Oneness Pentecostals that deny the trinity.
Thus the Allah of Islam is not the "Allah" of the Arabic Bible. The names are the same, but a Muslim means something entirely different than a Christian does, and normally his speech betrays it. Neither Christian or Muslim will speak about "Allah" or "God" in the same way. We have our respective ways of speaking about God. The one speaks of God with thaniksgiving and praise, as in a relationship; the other speaks of God in a fatalistic way, in fear and in submission, for God is aloof and transcendent and never personal. You can guess which God is the Christian's God. They cannot be confused.
Many people in Christendom have different views of Jehovah. They can't all be right.
Does that mean that some of them are in error or that they don't really worship Jehovah?
BTW, the word "god" is title by itself. There are many. "God" is not deity in and of itself. Else, there are all sorts of gods who are deity.
By the same token, "Allah" is Arabic for "God".
The Arabs worship the God of Abraham.
Some, using Islam, have corrupted who and what he is.
Does that mean that they don't worship the same God or that their perception of God has been corrupted?
I know several Messianic Muslims, and they declare that Jesus is the Son of Allah. They declare that he is the son of Jehovah. They also declare that the Koran and Islamic leaders have corrupted that message, as well. They found Jesus in the Koran. They went to the Scriptures to find out more. Every single Messianic Muslim that I know declares that Allah is the God of Abraham.
He's the same God, whose message has been corrupted.
The J.W.'s message has been corrupted, yet they use the word "god."
The Mormon's message has been corrupted, yet they use the word "god."
Islam's relgion has been corrupted, yet they use the word "Allah."
Arabic Christians use the word "Allah" but that doesnt' mean their faith has been corrupted. It is the Muslim that must be taught from the Scriptures who the true God is: that He is the Son of God, that He is Divine, Deity, and that there is no other God but Him. The Jehovah of the OT is the Jesus of the NT. That is the Allah of the Bible in Arabic. And until they learn that truth, they don't know who the real "allah" is.
I will have to do some study on this.
The only people I have dealt with who equate Jehovah with the Son are the LDS (although they have not always done so), but just because they embrace it does not mean that it is wrong.
I was using the name to represent the God (the Father), just as the Messianic Muslims with whom I am familiar were doing.
But, I have read the JW's Bible (the old one; I've only skimmed the new one), and guess what? It's the same Father they worship that we do. Doesn't mean that some of their doctrine is not corrupted.
The LDS people that I know worship the same Father, as well.
Not all religions do. Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Secular Humanists, etc., all clearly do not worship the same Father. (Or mother... </sarcasm off>) The message has not been distorted; it's non-existent.
If they do not know the Son for who He truly is, then they do not know the Father. Period.
Allah is a different God altogether.
You can not be a Messianic Hindu, or Muslim, or Budist. There is no such thing.
The Koran is NOT even a remote portion of scritpure, and can not, should not, and is not to be seen as such. They do not worship the same father any more than the JW, scientologists, and Mormons (LDS). They worship a completely different God, who gave them new revelation, new books and changed the Son into that which He is not. If the Son is not who He is scripturally then the Father is not the same either.
Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The problem is age old. Paul confronts. There have always been many gods of many different religions (and cults). It is our duty to teach and define who is the liiving and true God by means of the Bible. If their God is not the God of the Bible it is a false god. In Acts when they heard of the resurrection, they mocked and went back to their idolatry. They rejected the true god and went back to their "allan" their "J.W. god," etc. God is god. It is how you define God. What parameters do we put around him? How do we define him?
It means they DON"T worship the same One True and Living God, but a different and false god.
You are absolutely wrong. They believe and is their doctrine that "As we are, God once was. And as He is, we will be." Their god the Father was once a man who worshiped a god who was once a man, ext...
OK, so since you and I have different beliefs, which one of us worships the false God?
That is because "they" are looking at it from a linguistic point of view.
But Allah is not Jehovah. Never was, never will be.
Well, I will agree that you cannot be a Messianic Hindu or Buddhist, but you are wrong about there being no Messianic Muslims. I could introduce you to a few if you were here.
Jesus is in the Koran.
They wanted to know more, so they turned to Scriptures.
They accepted him as their savior, based on the fact that he is the Son of God or Allah.
The truth about Allah has been distorted.
He is the God of Abraham.
The Arabs are the heirs under the law! (Why do so many people forget that?) Ishmael had an inheritance, but it paled in comparison to the heir under grace.
BTW, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not named "God". So, based on your criteria, you must be worshipping a false god. (I don't think you are worshipping a false god, I just think you're self-righteous and pompous.)
Only in the mind of a Muslim. That does not mean that they did not descend from Ishmael. It does mean that their view of God has been distorted. Isn't it interesting that if I say that to one or more of them, I could be murdered. On the other hand, if they say something similar to me about God, I will pray for them. Amazing.
So, at what point of divergence (since they were originally the same before the teaching was distorted), do they become different Gods?