Are members of the Church left behind in the Rapture?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Feb 24, 2016.

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Are Members of the Church Left Behind at the Rapture?

This poll will close on Feb 24, 2021 at 11:00 AM.
  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Okay, another simple question.

    Please provide Scripture as to why you would believe there are members left behind, or, why you do not think this is the case.

    I do not see Paul teaching this, and will start with this passage:


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


    King James Version (KJV)


    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Kind of hard to see a division of the Body between those who are "worthy to be taken and those who are not.

    Secondly...what about the dead? Would we think that among the dead in Christ there is not a difference between the state they died in?

    Yet Paul teaches that all of the dead in Christ arise, and he teaches this to comfort them in regards to this event.

    And for our A-mil brethren, it is already understood that you do not view the Rapture as an event that takes place before the Millennial Kingdom, so I would just ask if you would leave this thread for those who are Pre-Millennial in their beliefs.


    God bless.
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Tread lightly. Advocating Millennial Exclusion is a banning offense on all areas of the Baptist Board.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
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    I am quite certain that there will be church members left behind at the rapture. The determining factor is not whether one is a member of the church or not; the determining factor, as Paul said, is whether one is "in Christ" or not.

    In the passage you submitted, Paul is addressing his "brethren." The assumption is that these Thessalonians, to whom he is writing, are saved believers. Paul qualifies which of the dead will be raised when he said, "the dead in Christ." Then, "we" [who are brethren] "will be caught up together with them."
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Hark

    Hark
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    As Pastor Bob said, those "IN" Christ as abiding in Him, will be received.

    Paul did teach this as he was just as much in danger of being castaway from being received to the Marriage Supper as any other saved believer.

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    So there is more at stake than the loss of the rewards of crowns. Salvation is not at stake, but that first inheritance to live in that city of God above is.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Discipleship is all about abiding in Him by His grace & by His help in laying aside every weight & sin to be received by the Bridegroom.

    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    I know that you believe Jesus is sometimes just addressing Israel, but whenever I see His words for His disciples, that include you and me, not Israel that has not been saved by Him yet to be part of that vine.
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan
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    GOD is with me already. I knew you guys are still waiting on a ride!

    Jesus Christ took me already. You waiting on Rapture? You missed it.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    This is not Millennial Exclusion, it is simply a view presented which has members of the Church being left behind to endure the Tribulation.

    Has nothing to do with the Millennial Kingdom.


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    This was not the intent of the OP, "professing members" are not in view, members of the Church are.

    Of course those who are tares will be left behind.


    This is already understood.

    The question is, will members of the Body of Christ be left behind to endure the Tribulation because they did not live lives that rewarded them with being raptured.

    One issue to consider would be the dead in Christ, which among we would assume, and rightly, I believe, that there were varying degrees of obedience and maturity when they died. We would also have to divide them up between "acceptable" and not acceptable if we do so for the living. The purpose for presenting the passage was to see if anyone might see in the text any room for Paul teaching anything other than the entire Church, both dead and alive, are caught up at the same time.


    God bless.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    So the dead in Christ have been glorified? You are in glorified form?

    Yep, we certainly did miss this.


    God bless.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I believe Pastor Bob was referring to those who are not in Christ being left behind. Professing members of the physical church, but not members of the Body of Christ. But we will have to wait and see if he elaborates.


    You are once again imposing a concept of "inheritance" which is not found in the text. Paul speaks on a temporal view in regards to being a castaway, you yourself acknowledging that salvation is not in view. He keeps his body under subjection, again an indication the temporal is in view.

    Again, our inheritance is one which is secure, and has nothing to do with 1 Corinthians 15, nor the above passage:


    1 Peter 1:3-5


    King James Version (KJV)


    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


    Our inheritance is secure, but, our testimony here is not. Our rewards are generated in the physical, whereas our salvation is generated only through the work of Christ.

    And there is no passage referring to the Rapture that suggests that we or any member of the Body are left behind.



    So where in this do you see that Christ will come for only those who not only believe, but have works that justify He take them to that prepared place when He comes?


    "Abiding" has nothing to do with discipleship, it is a mandate to embrace the True Vine.

    What it the vine which is not true, Hark? If you answer that question you will understand this passage better.

    And notice that all who abide produce fruit:


    John 15

    King James Version (KJV)


    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


    The terminology of v.6 speaks of eternal separation. So those abiding are they which are in Christ, and they will not fail to produce fruit. Those who do not are cut out, and as mentioned before, this cutting out is in reference to a group you have never belonged to, nor has the majority of the Body of Christ: Israel.

    The same imagery is given by Paul:


    Romans 11:16-20


    King James Version (KJV)


    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


    Again I ask you...what is the vine which is not the True Vine?

    Here, branches are cut out for one reason...

    ...unbelief.

    Now can we say that this pictures believers coming into a state of unbelief and then being cut out? No. And the context of the passage does not bear that out either. So we see that inarguably they are unbelievers of Israel. Those two points are critical to our understanding of John 15.

    Again...what is the vine which is not the True Vine?


    This is a prophetic mandate that looks forward to the time when the decision to embrace Christ will come. The entire Book of Hebrews illustrates this decision.


    Who does He address here...


    Matthew 23:1-3


    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

    2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

    3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


    ...?

    Who does He send the disciples to here...


    Matthew 10:5-7


    King James Version (KJV)


    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


    ...?

    Of course His teaching is applicable to Christians, but, just as we do not neglect the historical significance of an Epistle such as Hebrews, neither do we neglect the very teachings themselves. The disciples were not going out and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations, as they will be commissioned to do after the Cross, and empowered with the Coming of the Comforter, but they went to Israel alone by the commandment of Christ and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.


    God bless.
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    So this is a "two rapture" theory? Or "I will be raptured but you won't because I am more spiritual than you" theory?

    Or are you talking about classic Mid or Post Tribulationalism? If so you could probably have made that a bit clearer. :)

    If, on the other hand, you are discussing a "split rapture" theory could you please post an original source? Some people "believe there are members left behind" is probably not a great exposition of the source or the teaching. Is there a published work expositing this theory?
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    It would have to be, because the assumption would be that at some point those left behind would have to be raptured, seeing that Paul teaches the entire body of Christ is resurrected then caught up.

    And just to make it clear, I reject this view, which should be evident in the OP.


    That is the precise reason given in another thread. This thread was created because this off-topic issue was raised in another, so to isolate this particular issue I started this thread.


    This, in the larger view, si not relevant to the OP, which asks a simple question: Are Members of the Church Left Behind?

    While I would think this would have more relevance to a Pre-Trib view, we could also ask it of the other two views as well, and an answer to the OP can distinguish the particular view in mind if so desired.


    Not sure that I could have, really.

    The only distinctive requirement asked is that one be pre-millennial in their beliefs. I did not try to exclude Mid and Post View believers from the conversation, and in fact, differing views can broaden the scope of the discussion, and point out a perspective perhaps not considered by the other views.


    If the OP does not make it clear that a "split Rapture view" is in view, then I apologize, and confirm that now.

    I said...



    ...and have just added a parenthesis I missed in the OP.

    This topic arose in another thread and is a view I reject, and offered a starting point in Scripture in the OP as to why I reject it.

    The Rapture is described as involving the Church, both dead and alive, and no distinction of worthiness to be found.


    Wasn't actually meant to be, it was just a starting point for the discussion.

    The great exposition still remains to be seen.


    I have no idea, you would have to speak to those who actually embrace this view. And again, it is not to be compared with Millennial Exclusion, because that is a different teaching altogether.


    God bless.
     
  12. Hark

    Hark
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    I reckon so. Have you asked him to elaborate @Pastor_Bob ?

    Saved believers abiding in Him are abiding in the vine to bear fruit as His disciples.

    The moment a saved believer stops abiding in Him and in His words as His disciple, he is at risk of being cut off from that vine unless he repents in time with His help & by His grace before the Bridegroom comes.

    This is why I do not believe Israel is a part of that vine in John 15 th chapter as it only involves those that believe in Him to be considered a part of the vine and so in being His disciples, it is by abiding in His words.

    John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
     
    #12 Hark, Feb 25, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    No, but you just took care of that, lol.

    Again, you are imposing something not in the passage, neglecting the Historical Context.

    Not one of the disciples can be said to have "abided" in the meaning you are giving it (which is seen in John's teachings, by the way).

    If abiding means continuing to be a worthy Christian then the disciples are in fact disqualified as having obeyed this directive:


    John 16:28-32

    King James Version (KJV)


    28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

    30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

    31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


    But if we keep the teaching of John 14-16 in it's proper context, we will see that even as the coming of the Comforter was a future event, even so abiding is. Abiding is not a matter of being a good enough Christian, as the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) present it, but a distinct issue in regards of the transition from Law to the New Covenant,

    You cannot make the first disciple to have been obedient to Christ's teaching, for He Himself denies that they even believe. "Believing on Christ" would not be possible until Christ died, arose, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter.

    Ultimately the disciples will abide, and, as every abiding believer in Christ...produce much fruit.

    But, we look to those who are cut out and define what it means not to abode by them. These are they who are cut out because of one thing: unbelief. That one word is the defining word which separates the lost from the saved.

    Now I ask you again, my friend, what is the vine that is not the True Vine?


    God bless.
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Israel was not part of the vine?


    Psalm 80:8

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.


    Remember that Christ's teaching would have been in relation to the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Again, what is the vine that is not the True Vine?

    And, I would also ask that you try to maintain the topic of the OP. This thread was created because the thread concerning whether men were born again before Pentecost was derailed from the OP.

    You have presented a view that presents the Church being judged at the rapture and members of the Body left behind. I would prefer that this topic be explored so let's stay on topic.


    God bless.
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Wonderful. Who is that? At least give me an address and post number. I can't argue against something I have never seen. :)
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Well, brother Hark is one, for instance. That is actually why this thread was started, because we got side-tracked in another thread, so to make this the focal point I created this thread.

    As far as anyone else embracing or teaching this view, I can't recall this ever coming up before, but, these days, one need only google to find those who believe in just about any doctrine that might come up.


    God bless.
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Thread address? Post number?
     
  18. Hark

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    Yeah. I figured out how to tag someone. He might respond, Gd be willing.

    John 15 th chapter is following on the tail of John 14 th chapter which is about how salvation will eventually come to believers at Pentecost and beyond, and so historical context does not apply here. Jesus is talking about the future church as saved believers abiding in Him as His disciples.

    And so Jesus was not talking about Israel in regards to that vine in John 15 th chapter.

    You had reasoned it out in your second quote. The disciples were not a part of the vine until Pentecost, therefore the words of Jesus from 14th chapter to the 16th chapter was about saved believers abiding in Him & His words in being His disciples to bear fruit and that their joy may be full or else.. be cut off as a consequence for not abiding in Him and from being received into that Father's mansion which is the first inheritance.

    May God bless you to continue to grow in the knowledge of Him and His words.
     
  19. Hark

    Hark
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    You had earlier reasoned that the disciples were not saved until Pentecost and I say from John 14th chapter which is about His ascension in order for the Father to send the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost that accompanies our salvation is how saved believers is the topic of that vine in John 15 th chapter, and not Israel as Israel has not been redeemed yet to be a part of that vine since the disciples were not.
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    You can find it in the latter section of "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost for all Christians (or believers, or something like that).


    God bless.
     

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