Are New Testament Christians under the Mosaic Law?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Boanerges, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. Boanerges

    Boanerges
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  2. BobRyan

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    What does the NT text say about "Scripture" and LAW?

    IN the NT we always find that "Scripture" when "quoted" is the OT!!

    In the NT the statement is always "scritpure can not be broken".

    In the NT the Acts 17 example - we see that NT doctrine and even the words of the Apostle Paul are to be "validated" checked out against "Scripture" to "See IF those things are so!!

    The bogus notion of slicing up the OT text as it may please you - or using the NT apostles as mini-popes speaking was never a method of NT saints!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.

    John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

    These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

    But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

    Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

    Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

    Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
    So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

    Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
    Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

    Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
    Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
    Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
    Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
    Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

    Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

    As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".

    Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.

    Is it any wonder that Paul writes

    And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".

    God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".

    Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)

    ==================================================

    But some have argued that these saints under persecution keeping God’s commandments are a select few – and not really the larger group – of all Christians – in God’s planning. Is that true?

    Isaiah 66 makes it clear regarding the “New Heavens and New Earth” also identified in Rev 20 -- “From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to Worship”

    How can Christ the Creator call for ALL mankind to honor Sabbath as a day of Worship like that in the New Earth? Surely the Sabbath will NOT be for all mankind since in fact it WAS only for the Jews – correct?

    Christ the Creator addresses the point head-on

    “The Sabbath WAS MADE for Mankind” Mark 2:27

    From the very “making” of Christ the Creator’s Holy Day – it was “made for Mankind”

    Ok – so “when did Christ the Creator MAKE it?”

    Notice - Christ the Creator gave mankind the 7-day week in Gen 2:3. For it was ” Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made”. A 7-day week - not a 6-day week for mankind. Christ the Creator makes his holy 7th day memorial of His creative action in making mankind – “for mankind” when he MAKES it “holy” – sanctified in Gen 2:3 before the fall of mankind.

    When God speaks directly to His people in Exodus 20 and summarizes that same Gen 1-2:3 event notice what Christ the Creator says of His own Holy day – Made Holy at HIS making of this planet and life on this planet – and mankind.

    Exodus 20:8-11 summary of the Creation week "event" shows it to have been made holy, sanctified and blessed by virtue of God’s own act of resting – that “alone” is given as the basis for the command. The commandment is in the format “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy…For in Six days God…. Therefore He Blessed, sanctified and made holy the Seventh day”.

    Here it is in full as – God framed it at Sinai speaking directly to the People of God, He said

     
  4. BobRyan

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    John speaks about Keeping God’s commandments before the Cross, After the Cross and in the Rev 12, 16 end time period after the resurrection.

    Here John says the commandments of God “kept” by the saints by contrast to the rebellion described about those who war against the saints and persecute them.

    But “some” might argue that these saints “are special” and don’t actually live under the ONE Gopsel of Gal 6. As far fetched as that idea is – lets pursue some “proofs” showing that such wild speculation can not possibly be true.


    Here John shows us that the saints of God commanded to “keep” the Pre-Cross Commandments of God.

    And here John shows us that the saints are still to keep the commandments of God AFTER the resurrection of Christ!

    Is it any surprise that Paul is in full agreement with John on this post-cross requirement to ”keep the commandments of God”?

     
  5. BobRyan

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    The “TERM” TEN COMMANDMENTs applies ONLY to those words written on stone. A distinct unit – a distinct “name”. They are not called the “613 Commandments”.

    Moses reminds them that they “heard God’s Voice” they HEARD Him “speak”.

    And "yes" this case is even made in Exodus 20 --

    He also points out after listing THE TEN (that He calls THE TEN in chapter 4) that “God added NO more”.

    10 Commandments

    1) Called the "royal law" James 2:8.

    2) Was spoken by God.
    Deuteronomy 4:12, 13.

    3) Was written with the
    finger of God. Exodus 31:18.

    4) Was placed in the ark.
    Exodus 40:20, Hebrew 9:4.

    5) Is to "stand forever and ever.
    Psalms 111:7, 8.

    6) Was not destroyed by Christ.
    Matthew 5:17 & 18.

    7) Written on stone “And God added no more” Deut 5:22

    8) Continued in that UNIT in the NT (Eph 6:1-3) where the fifth commandment is the FIRST in that list ‘with a promise’.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    God's Law Defines Sin

    Some have argued
    But God's Law does the following
    #1. God's Word defines Law - His Word IS law
    #2. God's Law defines Sin
    #3 God's Law defines the penalty for sin
    #4. God's Word tells us that Christ paid that penalty for us

    The NT authors take the opposite approach - they say that it is "Gods Law" instead of "The Law of ISrael" and that it places "All under sin" not just those alive after Sinai.

    Paul says that ALL (not just those that lived after Sinai) are placed "Under Sin" by the Law - Gal 3:22-24, Romans 3:9-10, 19-20. All are in "need" of a Savior because the Law of God declares that ALL have sinned - and it "defines" what sin "is".

    Gal 3:
    22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
    24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

    Romans 3
    9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
    10 as it is written, "" THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

    Romans 3
    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
    20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


    And the penalty for transgression of the law Romans 6:23 is death - the second death. Rev 20:4-6 tells us that only the righteous raised in the first resurrection just before the 1000 years are "exempt" from the second death.

    2Thess 2:6-9 says that God will "repay" the wicked and that "They pay the PENALTY of eternal destruction".

    In Matt 18 Christ states that full and complete payment will be made by the wicked.
    repayment of "ALL that is owed"

    Luke 12:47-48 shows that the penalty is in exact proportion to the sins - the deeds and what we knew of right vs wrong.
    Luke 12:
    45 ""But if that slave says in his heart, "My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
    46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
    47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
    48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
    49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

    John agrees with this in Rev 20, the second death is the lake of fire and it is the reward of judgment based on deeds - sins recorded and sin IS transgression of God's Word - His Law.
    Rev 20:
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
    14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

    Paul is also in agreement
    2Cor 5
    9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
    11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.

    God's word states that His Word - His Law - is what judges us
    John 12:
    46 "" I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
    47 ""If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
    48 "" He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

    Some try to argue that this means it is not God's Word - God's commandments that judge - but instead it is Christs (as if there were a difference)

    49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

    He states that Our Violation of His law results in the "Certificate of Debt" - what we OWE is issued in the form of death decrees "Commands against us" stating that we are condemned and that we Owe the 2nd death.
    Col 2:
    13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
    14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

    This is the debt that Christ pays for us - paid

    John states that sin is By Definition transgression of God's Law itself (1John 3:4) "Sin IS transgression of God's Law"

    Paul Agrees that God's LAw defines sin in
    Romans 7:7
    What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''

    There is no escaping it - Paul says he is quoting the law - the 10 commandments from the OT and using it to explain "Sin" generically.

    Instead of arguing "OF all sins I happened to find one also listed here in the 10 commandments"

    His argument is that the law ITSELF is defining sin - just as John argues "Transgression of the Law IS sin" 1John 4:3.


    Romans 4:15 "Where there is no law Neither is there violation"

    And this principle works with "ALL" both before and after Mt sinai - because the law on stone - does not mean this is Gods FIRST introduction of that law that defines sin. In Genesis 4 it is "Sin" that is crouching at the door of Cain's heart - pre-Sinai - God is showing that Murder is "sin".

    But surely we can "assume" the Law of God did not exist before written in stone at Sinai right?

    In Gen 26:5 Abraham centuries Before Sinai is obedient to God and God says Abraham Obeyed "My charge, My Commandments, My Statutes, and My Laws"

    Paul insists - Romans 4:15 "Where there is no law Neither is there violation"

    God's Law is said by the NT authors to "Define Sin" and places All - even after the cross or before Sinai - in need of a Savior.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Ok we are still on "page one" so here goes my "page one" question for this thread --

    Question for those who reject God’s Ten Commandments – How is Paul using the unit of Ten here?

    Why does he not say “Children obey your parents because in a papal kind of way I simply pronounce that as the right thing to do. Certainly you would not do it because God said to do it at Sinai. Oh no that would be entirely wrong!”

    Paul says “it is the first commandment with a promise” – in what context would his readers find that to be true? In the “Unit of Ten”??
     
  8. Linda64

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    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Jeremiah 31:31)

    From Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible: Covenant :

    (5) New Covenant (Jer 31:1-33; Heb 8:7-13; 10:9-22). This is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ. It was given to the nation Israel (Jer 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Heb 8:7-13). The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Ro 11:25-27; Zec 13:1-9).

    The promise of the New Covenant: (1) It was made with the nation Israel (Jer 31:31). (2) It will replace the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32; Heb 10:8-9). It promises regeneration and cleansing from sin (Jer 31:33-34). (4) It reaffirms Israel's national security and future kingdom (Jer 31:35-37). (5) It promises Israel's possession of the land (Jer 32:37,41-44). (6) It is eternal (Jer 32:40). (7) It promises God's blessing upon the land (Eze 36:29-30).

    Other O.T. mentions of the New Covenant: (1) It will be established when Israel is restored and blessed before the eyes of all nations (Isa 61:8-11; Eze 37:21-28). (2) It will involve the placing of God's sanctuary in the midst of Israel forever (Eze 37:26-27). (3) Some Psalms record prayers of this future spiritual regeneration (Ps 80:18-19; 79:8-9). (4) Some Psalms picture the fulfillment of this covenant (Ps 85:1-13; 130:1-8; 72:1-20). (5) Mentions of Israel seeking God in the future are references to the New Covenant (Jos 3:5; 5:15-6:1). (6) Jesus referred to the New Covenant in His teaching of the new birth (compare Joh 3:1-15 and Eze 36:24-29).

    The New Covenant and the Church: If the New Covenant is not fulfilled in the church (referring to the church in a general, institutional sense), why does the writer of Hebrews apply it to Christians (Heb 8:6-13; 10:15-19)? Hebrews does not say the New Covenant is fulfilled in the church; it plainly says the New Covenant belongs to "the house of Israel" (Heb 8:10). Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the O.T. promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant. The writer of Hebrews indicates that every N.T. believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does he say that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church. The Apostle Paul taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Ro 11:25-27).
    ------------------------
    From the above article on the New Covenant, NT believers are NOT under the Mosaic Law (Covenant). So the answer is NO to the topic of the thread "Are New Testament Christians under the Mosaic Law?"
     
  9. Boanerges

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    HELP!

    Bob has spammed me on all threads....and I can't get up [​IMG]


    So Bob, did Paul break the Law after he was saved? Did God ever tell anyone to do something that went against the law?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Hey you invited me out to play
     
  11. BobRyan

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    What does that have to do with the idea of slicing up scripture and dumping God's Word?

    Would it "be ok to do" but only if "Paul sinned"??

    ARe you following this thread so far??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    As it turns out - there is only "one Gospel" and it worked in the OT just like it does in the NT - The New Covenant

    Efforts to try to "invent" another gospel for the OT are doomed.

    Gal 3 tells us the Gospel was "preached to Abraham".

    We SEE IT WRITTEN in Jeremiah 31.

    IN Heb 4:1-2 we are told "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM ALSO".

    Sadly for those who seek to invent "two gospels" there is only ONE!. The saints of Heb 11 even the ones in heaven like Enoch and Elijah were still saved ONLY under that ONE method - the Gospel as we find it in Jeremiah 31.
     
  13. Johnv

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    Rabbinnic and civil laws, no (they weren't written for, or intended for, all people). Moral laws, however, yes. They were written for all who follow God.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Good points all JohnV

    Originally posted by Claudia_T:

    THE CEREMONIAL LAW AND THE TWO COVENANTS

    The distinction between the Moral law of God (the ten commandments), and the ceremonial law is plain.
    Look carefully at the difference in the two. The one with animal sacrifices was nailed to the cross, the other will stand forever.

    10 Commandments

    1) Is called the "royal law" James 2:8.

    2) Was spoken by God.
    Deuteronomy 4:12, 13.

    3) Was written with the
    finger of God. Exodus 31:18.

    4) Was placed in the ark.
    Exodus 40:20, Hebrew 9:4.

    5) Is to "stand forever and ever.
    Psalms 111:7, 8.

    6) Was not destroyed by Christ.
    Matthew 5:17 & 18.

    7) Written on stone “And God added no more” Deut 5:22

    Deut 5

    22 ""These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.[/quote]

    The unit is clearly identified in scripture as “the Ten Commandments” of God. Deut 4:13
    “Ten Commandments written on tablets” of stone Ex 34:28, Deut 10:4

    This was the only LAW – placed INSIDE the ark of the covenant. 1 Kings 8:9 Heb 9:4, Deut 10:2-4
    (the other writings of Moses placed “beside” the Ark Deut 31:24-26)


    Ceremonial Law

    1) Is called the law contained in
    ordinances. Ephesians 2:15.

    2) Was spoken by Moses. Leviticus 1:1-3.

    3) Was written by Moses in a book. 2 Chronicles 35:12.

    4) Was placed in the side of the ark. Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

    6) Sacrifices of which were abolished by Christ. Ephesians 2:15. Heb 10:4-9

    The two great commandments are "Love the Lord with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind." Deut 6:5 The second great commandment is "Love your neighbor as yourself." Lev 19:18

    God's ten commandments are hanging on these two. The first four, on the first table, tell us how to love God with all our heart. (Have no other Gods, not worship images, not take God's name in vain, and remember His Sabbath day to keep it holy). the last six, on the second table deal with loving our neighbor as ourselves. (To honor our parents, not kill, not commit adultery, not steal, not lie, not covet).

    THE OLD AND NEW COVENANTS

    The old covenant was ratified by the blood of animals (Exodus 24:5-8 and Hebrews 9:19,20) and based upon the promises of the people that they would keep God's law.
    The new covenant is based on God's promise to write His law in our hearts and it was ratified with the blood of Christ. (Hebrews 8:10 and Jeremiah 31:33, 34).
    Hebrews 8:10 — "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people."
     
  15. Boanerges

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    Bob,

    I know that some SDA's follow the dietary laws. Do you?
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Just the ones known to all mankind at the flood
     
  17. EdSutton

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    Bob, Marvelous posts! Some of the best I've ever seen. Well, that is, save for two little, minor insignificant details.
    1. Whatever Jeremiah 31 is saying, it speaks not a whit about the N.T. Christians, either in the singular, or in the plural.
    2. Secondly, you can't have it both ways. James 2:10 specifically says, "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Fair enough, whatever THIS verse says, it emphatically does not say 'Royal Law' as you implied is equal to the 'Moral Law', elsewhere. I reject that equation, by the way, but that is irrelevant to this post.
    You implied that some 'diced and sliced' the OT law. I have not made such an attempt; to my knowledge, Jesus made no such division, nor, obviously did James. There are a handful of terms used for The Mosaic Law in Scripture, 'The Law', 'Moses', 'The Commandments', etc. There are several citings and references of 'the Law' by Paul, alone.
    What are some of the things said about members of the Body of Christ and the relation to the law? We are not under law but under grace, dead to the law, dead through the law, free from the law, delivered from the law, and redeemed for the law. These are only a few. Am I under the Mosaic Law? absolutely not! How much clearer could that be?
    Am I under any law? Absolutely yes! The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; The perfect Law of liberty; the Law of love. How much clearer could THAT be?
    Am I 'under' the principles ensconsced in 'the law'? Absolutely! All of them.
    Am I 'under' the precepts ennumerated in 'the law'?
    Not the first one!
    Ed
     
  18. Linda64

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    Posted by BobRyan:
    How come you never said what Christ meant by "My Commandments"? I'm not familiar with "pre-cross" commandments, except for the Mosaic Commandments, given to Israel in Exodus 20 and Deut. 5. I read through your post and I could not find a reference to Matthew 22:36-40. So, here it is:

    Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


    It appears that there are only two commandments here. Those two cover the 10 commandments. Jesus was re-affirming the 10 commandments.
     

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