Are Non-Christians Saved?

Barbarian observes:
You added "religion" to make His words fit your own
desires. He never said that. In fact, Jesus overtly told
His listeners to emulate a Samaritan, rather than a
Levite. You don't approve, because it bothers you that
people of other faiths might find salvation. That's not
what God wants you to want. He is unwilling that any be
lost to Him.

Yes, you did. I included what you wrote above. That’s what you did. Jesus never said “religion.” You added that to make His word conform to your wishes.

No, universalism says all are saved. Christianity says God can save anyone, even non-Christians. I gather by now, you admit that it’s a lie to say that RCC says that Baptists are going to hell.

Barbarian observes:
You seem to be conflicted over whether you want to
claim that Roman Catholics think only Roman Catholics
are saved, or whether you want to claim that we think
everyone is saved. In fact, both are false claims.

As you learned earlier, you are conflating “catholic” (meaning those belonging to His church, with the Roman Catholic church, which is only a fraction of all the world’s Christians. This is why even Protestants mention the “holy catholic church.”

See above. Nice try, but it’s a very transparent attempt to deceive. You have seen a firm statement from the Vatican saying that other Christians are also saved, and even an admission that God can save non-Christians.

I said that God could save them. Since you also alter God’s word, I guess I’m in good company.

That would be an improvement over your present habits.

And now you’ve given up trying to show it scripturally, and hope to convince us by insisting.

Barbarian observes:
None are saved without Jesus, but no denomination
owns Jesus. He can and will save any person who
sincerely seeks Him, wrong or not.

Not even “so to speak.” No one has God in a box. You need to accept Him the way He is, and not be so interested in committing others to Hell. Indeed, the Bible shows that Satan’s fall was partly due to his eagerness to condemn others before God.

Barbarian on the parable of the Good Samaritan:
More than that, he was saying that it was better to have
love and compassion than to be theologically correct.

He said to emulate a heretic who had love and compassion, rather than one who had the correct faith, but no compassion. That’s what he said.

Well, let’s see what He said was paramount…

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So you’re wrong about that, too.

Barbarian observes:
That's why he told His listeners to be more like the
Samaritan than the Levite. A lot of people, from a
superficial reading of the parable, think the message is
only "it's good to be charitable." That is not even the
primary message.

And yet He commends the Samaritan instead of the Jew.

Remember the context. He was speaking to Jews, under the old covenant, in which the Levites were the most careful followers.

Barbarian observes:
He chose a Samaritan, precisely because Jews saw
them as despicable heretics. When you understand
why, there will no longer be a conflict between these two
verses for you.

They despised them because they had a difference in doctrine.

See above. He says love is more important than anything else. Doctrine is important to you, because you wield it like a weapon to harm those who don’t agree with you. In doing so, you have learned the words, but you have lost love. And without that, there can be no salvation for you.

Barbarian observes:
Indeed. But all who earnestly seek him can be saved,
even if they are mistaken about Him.

Surely Jesus would not have told his followers to do something that would lose them salvation. And yet he told them to emulate the Samaritan. All of us, who earnestly seek Him, can be saved.

You have formed your own personal religion, because you are so eager to see others in Hell that you won’t even accept Jesus’ word. Let God decide, and come to Him on His terms.

 

You just said "God is not Allah"
Your previous statement:

You are confused aren't you?

 

"Allah" is the name by which Muslims call the God who spoke to Abraham. They are mistaken in many ways about Who He is.

Even Arabic Bibles use "Allah" to speak of the Christian God.

 

Their God is not the Jehovah who spoke to Abraham. Don't be blasphemous by equating the two.
Allah is the Arabic name for god. No one disputes that. But so what! If the Moonies lived there, as well as J.W.'s, Mormons, Hindus, Sikhs, and a host of other religions, they would all use "allah" in the Arabic language to mean "god," just as we do. That doesn't change the facts any. Just as "god" to those religions does not define Jehovah of the OT or Jesus of the NT; neither does Allah in Arabic; neither does Allah in every case and in every religion defined as the God of Islam. There is obviously more than one definition for "god" or "allah" depending on the religion that you are speaking of. There are many "false gods." The only true God is found in the Bible. Allah is a false God.

 

Sorry Ann

 

Barbarian, nothing! Why are you trying to confuse people. There is no Barbarian in this thread. You are the Barbarian that posted in #70 what you quoted above. Just be honest about your quotes, and you can refer to yourself since there is a poster called "Barbarian." And he is not the one you refer to as "Barbarian observes:" Why the deceit?

As I went back and read the original post I can understand what you are referring to. Every verse has meaning. I wasn't adding anything to the Scripture. God forbid that I should do. I was giving an explanation. So why the false accusation? Can't you accept an exposition of God's Word without slander and false accusation? Instead of falsely accusing me of adding to the Word why don't you come up with a better explanation? Here is the Scripture again:

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ, the door. It is through that door that a man finds salvation, not through any other door, not through any other religion. That is what Jesus is teaching here. He refers to other religions and religious teachers in verse one as thieves and robbers. If you try to gain salvation through any other door but Christ you are a thief and a robber. The false teachers of religions steal people away from Christ, and lead them to everlasting destruction. This is the point of the parable. They are thieves and robbers compared to Christ, the good Shepherd who gives life and life more abundantly (Jn,10:10). Yes, religion is the topic here. I don't have to add it. It is the context. Jesus is the only way of salvation. All other ways (religions) are false ways.
Now instead of making false accusations, it would be far more ethical for you to refute my position using the same Scriptures.

As I demonstrated--a false accusation. You have nothing better to do.

The RCC teaches that Muslims are saved.
You have taught that others in false religions can be saved and still remain in their false religion--an absolute heresy.

The RCC murdered Baptists and Protestants alike because they did not affirm the Catholic faith. Read Foxe's Book of Martyr's. Look at the Reformation; the testimony of Luther, and why he was excommunicated. The RCC does not tolerate doctrine outside of its own church. One can only be saved through the RCC. Otherwise Luther would not have been excommunicated and treated the way he was. What was the purpose of the Inquisitions--just to have a little fun perhaps??
They tortured and killed those whom they declared heretics though they were simple Bible Beleivers. There was (and is) no salvation outside of the RCC. History verifies this over and over again. So do the Documents of Vatican II, which I posted earlier on. (You conveniently ignored them).
The fact is the RCC is full of contradictions.

Post #72 reads:

Again, why the deception? Why do you quote yourself as a person called Barbarian? Isn't there a name for attributing your words to another person? It certainly isn't ethical. Just say what you have to say.

It seems as you are the one who hasn't learned yet. I am fully aware of those differences, but I don't always differentiate between them in my writings. When I write Catholic I mean Catholic, as in RCC. So you can take Catholic to mean RCC, and not to try to play any game of semantics with me. Most Protestants that I know today would abhorrently shun away from that dreadful phrase: "holy catholic church," because of all the heretical connotations it drums up.

And you have seen a firm statement from the documents of Vatican II stating how it is only through the Catholic Church one can be saved. Both Helen and myself quoted from different sections of the book giving similar statements. And you just dismiss them. So much for truthfulness and honesty!

Are you now backing down from your previous stance, even from what your own catechism says.
#1. Your own catechism says that Muslims are saved.
#2. You have already said that people of other religions are either saved or can be saved and remain in their own false religion--the same thing.

My answer: It is impossible to have a saved Muslim, a saved Buddhist, a saved Hindu, a saved Jainist, a saved Confucianist, a saved Shintoist, a saved Taoist, etc. It is impossible, absolutely impossible; for those religions all deny the deity of Christ and that salvation is through Christ. Their religions are works religions. They are false religions. In order to be saved they, of a necessity, must forsake their religion. You cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. It is impossible.

I have given Scripture after Scripture showing that Christ is the only way through which one must be saved. The Koran denies this. The Koran denies that Christ died. The Koran denies the Resurrection. The Koran denies the deity of Christ. You cannot be saved denying such cardinal doctrines of Christ. Here is what the Bible says about such:

2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The Muslim (as well as these other false religions) "hath not God." If you even say "Good bye" to them (meaning: "God-be-with-ye") then you are partakers of their evil deeds.

Are you sure this is Barbarian speaking?
Only Biblical Christianity "owns" Christ, for they alone have the Word of God. It used to be Israel that could say this. Look at the words of Paul concerning the nation of Israel:

Romans 9:4-5 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
--What did the nation of Israel have--the adoption, the covenants, the Law, God's service, the promises of God, the Patriarchs or whom came Jesus Christ Himself. All of these blessings came to us through the Jewish nation. But now God has set Israel on a shelf for a season.

 

Now, God has called out "another" nation for himself (1Pet.2:5,9). That nation is Biblical Christianity. Just as the Jews "owned" Jehovah; Christians "own" Christ. And we are commanded to take OUR Saviour to the ends of the world that others may KNOW him as well.

If you want to call the Bible or even the gospel a box, that is your perogative. But you cannot be saved without the message of the gospel. The gospel is a Biblical message found in the Bible. It is not found in dreams and visions. Read and study Heb.1:1,2. Everything that we need to know about God and Christ is revealed to us through His Word. It is our obligation to take that Word to the nations. The Documents of Vatican II reaffirm this evangelistic and missionary endeavor as well. Why do you seem to be denying it?

More of this mythical Barbarian who has not yet posted on this thread.
--NOPE! You are absolutely wrong. You can have all the love and compassion you want. But love and compassion won't get you to heaven. That is what is so wrong about taking doctrine from a parable. Unless you are doctrinally correct you cannot enter into heaven. Unless you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, that he took the penalty of your sins upon himself, you cannot enter into heaven. You can't believe that Allah, or Mohammed, or Buddha, or Guru Nanak will be your Saviour. It won't work. You must be theologically correct. Your misplaced love won't get you anywhere.

Chapter and verse please. Demonstrate that through the Scriptures. Where did Christ say to emulate a heretic?

No sir, you are in the wrong. What is paramount here? Not the love that you are speaking of.
The first and greatest commandment speaks of a love that requires you to love God with all your mind. If you would do that you would learn every thing that there is to know about God. You would continually apply your mind to the Bible. You would memorize it from cover to cover. You would meditate on it day and night (as it commands us to do). You would bring into captivity every thought that exalts itself against Christ. You would use your mind continually to think on those things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, and only of things that fall into those categories. But you don't use your mind in those ways do you. Your mind is not devoted to loving God as he commands you.
The second greatest command is to love your neighbor as yourself.
Are you ready to use your mind on this one too?
However you treat yourself you must treat others. You get up in the morning and you dress yourself. Do you clothe those that have need of clothing? You eat breakfast? Do you feed the hungry? You go to work to earn money for your own needs. Do you provide for the needs of others? Do you think what are the needs of others and go and provide for them? Are you really fulfilling this command. Have you thought through the implications of this command? How much do you love yourself? How much do you end up taking care of yourself. Do you take enough care of others as you do for yourself? I don't think so. I think, you don't think. You need to be theologically correct. The concept that people have about a wishy washy love is not the concept that Jesus had in mind.

 

Who is Barbarian?
The parable was in answer to the question "And who is my neighbor?"
So you can deduce the primary meaning of the parable, but it is not what you think it is.

Your job is to figure out why. You haven't done that yet.

Chapter and verse please. Show me the context where the Jews declared them as heretics. That is not why the Jews despised them. I already explained that to you. But it is evident that you don't read my posts.

Chapter and verse please.

Chapter and verse please. Where did Jesus ever say that love was more important than doctrine. He never said any such thing. You are espousing heresy.

I have bolded your words for a reason. You say that it is impossible for me to be saved. That is quite a statement for you to make, seeing that I already know that I am saved. A statement questioning another's salvation like that can get you banned very easily.
The gospel is doctrine. It is the salvation message. So is the teaching of the deity of Christ--who Christ is--Christology.
Jesus taught doctrine for three years to his disciples. Without doctrine one cannot be saved. One can love all they want. Love can be misplaced. But if you don't have the right message about Christ; the right doctrine, you cannot be saved. It is impossible. Even the RCC teaches that (but in their own perverted way). Through the RCC you must be saved, they say. They claim that it is through the sacraments that salvation comes, and surely you wouldn't deny that.

Who is Barbarian?
The statement is false. One must know the one that he is believing else he cannot be saved. We don't believe in mysticism.

Jesus commanded his followers to take the gospel into all the world. He never said people in false religions could be saved and remain in their heretical religions. He condemned the very practice, saying to the Pharisees that their father was the devil. Obviously they needed to be born again and leave their Pharisaism, as Paul did.

I resent your slander.
I have not formed any personal religion as those on this board know.
I follow the Bible. It is my sole authority in all matters of faith and doctrine, (sola scriptura), a doctrine which the Catholic Church hates.
It is you that will not accept the Word of God because you are bound to the word of the Magesterium. That much is obvious to all.

 

That is like saying "Jehovah"/"Yahweh" is/was some pagan God. "Musa" is Moses, "Isa" is Jesus, "Butros" is Peter, "Miriam" is Mary, and "Allah" (al-Ilah) is God. There is no other word in Arabic that means "God."

Gautama Buddha, BTW, was a human being who lived several thousand years ago, so no, Buddha is not God. This is a whole separate faith from Judaeo-Christian belief.

Islam, on the other hand, comes out of Christianity and Judaism and is very similar. It is about as different from either as they are from each other. And yes, Allah is 'the God of Abraham' within Islam, the very same one.

 

Allah is defined by the Muslims in the Koran. He is not a generic god. He is cruel, capricious and fatalistic. He is a demon-inspired caricature of God. Read the Koran in order to find out who Allah is just as you would read the Bible to find out who God (Jehovah) or Jesus Christ is. Would you read the Book of Mormon to find out who God is? I hope not.

That is true. And he did not believe in God. However to his dismay his followers deified him later, and made him a god. It is not separate to this topic since the followers of the present god of Buddha (according to Galatian--and apparently yourself) can worship Buddha and be a Christian at the same time, thus making Christ into a liar. He said I am the way. He is the only way. Buddha is not another way to heaven.

Islam comes out of the heart of Satan. You need to study it. It has nothing to do with Christianity. There is no relation to it whatsoever. What would ever give you that idea? Mohammed observed the monotheism of Judaism and Christianity and thought that worshipping one God would be better than the prevailing practice of animinism that surrounded him. He was a camel driver that traveled with his uncle. In his travels he heard many of the OT Bible stories told in the town center (by Jews and Christians) of the various towns that he went to. That is where he gained some knowledge of the Bible. You can see the obvious mistakes in these stories that his memory was not able to retain by reading the Koran.

When he peddled his new found religion to the Jews, the Jews rejected it. He attacked the Jews and turned his attention to Mecca. There he built a shrine where he placed a 'sacried stone" which Muslims worship to this day. The place is called the Ka'aba, Mohammed's bones are also buried there. It is required for every Muslim to make a pilgrimmage there at least once in their life. This is a religion of fear; not of love; a religion of works; not of grace; a religion of war and destruction, not of peace and safety.
It is diametrically opposed to Biblically Christianity.
They believe that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed and not Isaac.
Their version of the virgin Mary is that she was impregnated with an angel and not with the Holy Spirit, for in no way could Christ be the Son of God.
Christ did not die, nor did he rise again from the dead. There is no gospel in Islam.
They claim that every word of the Bible has been changed and corrupted. The only existing Word of God that remains today remains within the pages of the Koran.

This religion has nothing but hatred for Christianity.
They believe that America is a Christianity, and thus name America "The Great Satan." Doesn't that tell you something?
In the mid-east their one goal is to drive Israel off the face of the map and into the sea. They are the most anti-semitic people on the earth. They live for the destruction of Israel. Open your eyes to see what is going on.

 

Don't buy this. The way God is portrayed in the Koran is actually pretty consistent with the Old Testament.

I have.

Your reading skills leave something to be desired. We said non-Christians would be in heaven. No one said anything about being a BuddHist and a Christian at the same time.

More vacuuous name-calling, totally without meaning other than to insult and stir up hatred.

Right. Mohammad did base his theology on Judaism and Christianity, and it was an "improvement" over the idolatry that existed previously, yes.

FOA, Muhammad is not buried in Mecca. He is buried in Medina. Secondly Muslims do not worship the black stone. It is "just a stone" with a special significance in the history of Islam. Thirdly I don't believe Muslims see their faith as a faith of fear, and would quarrel with you on that. Most of Christianity is fairly works based, so won't take issue with that.
Basically, you evidently do not have the background in Islam that is necessary to sustain a meaningful conversation on this subject.

They do not believe in the Trinity, true.

As opposed to what you are saying about them?

Arabs are Semites, and I am no more fond of Israel than they are! We can discuss Israel another time.

Look, if we are going to continue this conversation we really have got to pick it up out of the gutter. Like I said I will try to post something on the ORIGINAL SUBJECT, which was whether non-Christians might find salvation, this weekend.

Meanwhile see if you can extend your Christian charity to those who die in infancy. I want to read what you have to say about that particular group of non-Christians.

 

Since when did George W. Bush get voted out of the office of President???

 

What he means, it seems, is ANOTHER man by the same name, George Bush .

 

You mean his father?

I thought I had missed the election without voting... :saint:

 

Whose reading skills? Are you saying that a Buddhist is a Christian and outside of the group that we call "non-Christians?"
Can a non-Christian be in heaven? No. Christ is the only way to heaven.

 

You must be joking. The question is does one have to be a Christian to be saved.

 

I think he means one of the other 30,000+ George Bushes there are in the country!

 

I am, in fact, the only one posting as The Barbarian. Because some people were concerned that Barbarians were not politically correct, I agreed to let them change the name officially to "Galatian." But for continuity's sake, I continued as The Barbarian.

You added "Religion" to it, which was not there, and changed the meaning. This is something you should never do.

True. You just aren't pleased who He will let though that door.

:
Barbarian observes:
No, universalism says all are saved. Christianity says God can save anyone, even non-Christians. I gather by now, you admit that it’s a lie to say that RCC says that Baptists are going to hell.

Another falsehood. We admit that they can be saved.

Nope. Orthodox Christianity. How sad that you cannot be satisfied with salvation, unless you can deny it to others.

And Protestants murdered Catholics and each other. It does not change the truth.

You seem to have two diametrically opposed delusions. On one hand, you keep insisting that the Catholic Church says all non-Catholics are damned to hell. On the other hand, you keep arguing that they say all will be saved. Both, of course, are falsehoods.

As you learned, that is a lie.

See above. Galatians were barbarians, BTW. Feel free to call me by the politically correct, or the real name, as you like.


Barbarian observes:
As you learned earlier, you are conflating “catholic” (meaning those belonging to His church, with the Roman Catholic church, which is only a fraction of all the world’s Christians. This is why even Protestants mention the “holy catholic church.”

This has caused you no end of confusion.


Barbarian observes:
See above. Nice try, but it’s a very transparent attempt to deceive. You have seen a firm statement from the Vatican saying that other Christians are also saved, and even an admission that God can save non-Christians.

You conflate catholic, with Roman Catholic. Note that not one of your statements said that you had to belong to the Roman Catholic church. But the statement from Vatican II did say that all Christians were open to salvation, and even nonChristians could be saved.

I suppose you've switched over to the "only Roman Catholics can be saved" delusion, now.

I'm truly not sure whether you are that deluded, or are just trying to misrepresent the church.

(assertion that Barbarian says Muslims are saved)

Barbarian chuckles:
I said that God could save them. Since you also alter God’s word, I guess I’m in good company.

It says they can be saved.

Nope. And it's too late to try to slip back into the truth. You didn't tell the truth about what I said. Best admit it and go on.

Sorry, that's not the Christian belief. God can save who He will, and your protest has no more effect on Him than the wind blowing in the trees.