Are our churches really New Testament Churches...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by IFB Mole, Jan 1, 2006.

  1. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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    like in the book of Acts or are they "incorporated buisnesses" that are under the authority of Federal, State, Local governments AND the IRS and state tax boards?

    I am no crazy "patriot" nut, but church incorporation does limit, shackel or otherwise CONTROL the Lord's church. A 501 c3 not for profit incorporated church is NOT a New Testatment Church. It is a not for profit organization that is under the state. Check these links out....
    Baptist Church, Inc #1
    Baptist Church, Inc. #2
    Baptist Church, Inc. #3
    Baptist Church, Inc. #4
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Would you please tell me three ways that being incorporated limits, shackels, or otherwise controls the Churches from carrying out the Great Commission?

    Thanks,

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. DeadMan

    DeadMan
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    I won't argue this point, but what other options are there? :confused:

    Besides, our job is simple: To carry out the Great Commission! And some governmental tax status isn't going to prevent us from doing that, is it?
     
  4. DeadMan

    DeadMan
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    Ooops, I restated what Joseph said ... sorry!
     
  5. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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    Joe, did you read the links?? There are more than 3 that's for sure, but anyway....

    The Great Commission, IMHO is the entire Word of God we are to make desciples "having gone, TEACH" is what the Bible says. We must teach the entire Word of God and to do that, you will be in violation of the law if you are a 501 C3 tax-exempt organization. You can NOT (legally) call homosexuality a sin, or abortion sin or talk of ANY legislation from the pulpit. Soon you can't call a sinner a sinner!! It is already ILLEGAL (if you're a 501 c3 incorporated 'church') to claim that Christianity is the only way to heaven.

    To be a "legal" tax-exempt 501C3 organization a church MUST beleive and adhere to "over riding public policy" as public policy embraces and accepts more and more depraved lifestyles as normal, churces will have to accept it and NOT preach against it OR ELSE loose thier precious tax-exemption. If a church looses its IRS tax-exemption it may die, according to David Gibbs and the CLA.

    Jesus however promises NOTHING will destroy His church not even the IRS.
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Examples of NT churches are found in Rev. 2 and 3. Which one will you help your church to be?
     
  7. exscentric

    exscentric
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    " talk of ANY legislation from the pulpit"

    I think if you check, this is untrue, you just can't tell your people how to vote and that is the limitation of the limitations set.

    Churches are automatically tax exempt so do not need the 501 status if they so desire.
    ---
    "If a church looses its IRS tax-exemption it may die, according to David Gibbs and the CLA.

    "Jesus however promises NOTHING will destroy His church not even the IRS."

    Seems you answered your own "worry" :D
     
  8. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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    the question is should government have ANY authority over the Lord's church?
     
  9. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
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    Please show me proof that it's illegal to preach any kind of religious (not political) doctrine from the pulpit, including the doctrine that Christ is the only way to salvation.
     
  10. mountainrun

    mountainrun
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    IFB Mole's claims may be correct {about what you can say from the pulpit} in Canada, but not here.

    MR
     
  11. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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    StraightAndNarrow and others,

    The Application for Recognition of Exemption Form 1023 Schedule A for Churches (Rev. 9/98) demands a declaration with these words at point #3:
    “Does the organization require prospective members to renounce other religious beliefs or their membership in other churches or religious orders to become members. If “Yes” explain”

    It doesn’t take a degree in Theology to see exactly where they are going with this. In order to be considered a “legal” church (tax exempt) in America, the church or ‘religious organization’ will have to declare that all religions are equal. They will also have to declare that they do not believe that their doctrinal position only results in converts to their faith having eternal life.

    Also READ the IRS "tax exempt" form for "incorporated churches" it in no uncertian terms says for 17 of 30 requirements for 501(c) (3) Churches Department of Treasury I R S Pub 1826 (9-94) Cat. no. 21096G, churches must:
    1. Be incorporated (THE CHURCH BECOMES A BUSINESS)
    2. Have a recognized creed and "IRS approved form of worship."
    3. Have "IRS approved code of doctrine".
    4. Have ordained ministers educated in "state accredited colleges."
    5. Be "neutral on political issues."
    6. "Have tax exempt status issued by IRS."
    7. Pastor must answer to the IRS as to "daily activities of the church."
    8. The IRS must be privy to "all financial transactions" of the church.
    9. Pastor must supply "names of all donors"- make books records available.
    10. May only use "IRS approved" fundraising methods.
    11. Pastor will be "called to account over any stand taken against the tax system."
    12. Church "must advocate and support racial integration." (Multiculturalism)
    13. May "not" engage in activities "opposing pornography."
    14. May "not" support legislation saying "children belong to parents" rather than state."
    15. May not form a Political Action Committee nor support legislation "opposing lotteries and gambling activity."
    16. May not "oppose the public school system."
    17. May "not publicly declare" we are to "obey God rather than the government."

    How much controls will the churches allow before they say NO - for Paul the government could have NO intrusion AT ALL, men like Bunyon were persecuted niegh unto death, when others did die.

    No we (me included) sit around allowing more and more unbiblical intrusion into the Lord's Church and as long as we can preach "Jesus Saves" it's ok to put more and more laws, statutes and codes on the Lord's Church that pastors attend legal and tax seminars to make sure the church is 'legal' and 'tax compliant'

    Effectively churches are simply "Christian tax exempt organizations registered and 'approved' by the state" They are INCORPORATED BUSINESSES
     
  12. Karen

    Karen
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    Dear IFB Mole,
    I just skimmed Pub 1828 (not 1826) at www.irs.gov and I cannot find what you have in italics. I expect that you have italicized someone's interpretation rather than a direct quote from the IRS.

    Karen
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Can you give the link to your source of information?
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv
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    Being an incorporated organization does not automatically disqualify a church from being an NT church.

    Further, there is no "one" NT church. The NT church is a body of believers, and they are probably as diverse culturally and socially than we are today. We should not presume that, just because there is diversity of worship styles, customs, and practices, that this is somehow an indicator of the church today no longer being akin to the NT church.
     
  15. nate

    nate
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    Excellent post [​IMG]
     
  16. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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    Johnv,

    Would this be a NT church???:

    1) Created by the State (through incorporation)
    2) A Creature of the State (because incorporated)
    3) Derives its power from the State (by 'articles of incorporation' and corp laws)
    4) Considered an ‘organization’ (IRS 501c3 never mentions churches only 'organizations in their 501C3 filings)
    5) Receives ‘official’ papers from the State (recorded incorporation documents and Federal tax ID #)
    6) Operates more like a business than a church (501 c3 corporate churches MUST LEGALLY have a president, vice-president sec and tres -LIKE a BUSINESS, are these Bible offices of a NT church?)
    7) Allowed only for “public” worship, not private (this is an IRS ruling)
    8) Cannot be political in anyway (NO NO by the IRS)
    9) Cannot speak against any issue that is “public policy” (Bob Jones U got slammed for this)
    10) Pastors duties defined by the State (IRS publications)
    11) Benevolence defined by the State (IRS Publications)
    12) Must only conduct business with checks, no cash (IRS rule again, biblical??)
    13) Report certain sins to the authorities (no pastor confidentiality with a 501 C3 'church')
    14) Structure and organization of church defined by the State (As per corporate laws)
    15) Declare ALL religions are equal (see earlier post above)
    16) Keep all financial records available for State review (IRS has eyes everywhere)
    17) Collect taxes for the State (yep sure do, payroll taxes, SSI, etc.)

    Most readers would probably believe that assuredly this list would constitute a State CONTROLLED church. Unbelievably however, this list is the guidelines that a church must comply to that is incorporated by the State under Title 26 Section 501 (c)(3) of the IRS Code

    But hay as long as we can preach "Jesus Saves" that's ok, put as many laws and rules and statutes that you want on us, as long as contrubutors can "deduct" offerings churches will comply to ALL the state says. You just can't preach "Jesus (only) Saves"

    Don't be in denial - an IRS 501C3 tax exempt incorporated church is HIGHLY controlled by "big brother" more than one wants to admit or knows since most members are totally oblivious to incorporated churches. "First Baptist Church, Inc." "Honorary Dr. I. Cheetham, President"
     
  17. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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  18. gb93433

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    My understanding is that asa church you do not need to be a 501(c)(3) but you do need to have an EIN number if you expect that people who give can receive a tax benefit.


    My understanding is the practice of 501(c)(3)started when Reagan was president to protect the assets of the churches and limit their liability when sued. I personally know of a church that was forced to disband when it was sued by an outisder. The person who sued took everything the church owned and it ceased to exist shortly after the suit was filed and the court case heard.

    In a sense you can say the practice started when people became greedy or churches misappropriated funds.
     
  19. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole
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    gb,

    First would incorporating the church "protected" it? Lawyers pierce the corporate viel all the time (Enron anyone?)

    Second, if a church was neglegent for somethine should they not be held liable?? (Catholic child molestors)

    Third, Tax deductible offerings SHOULD NOT be the reason we give, we give IN SPITE of the "tax deduction". Good you mentioned that because the Supreme Court ruled that the tax dedcutible gifts amount to a tax subsidy and if a church gets a tax subsidy there are strings attached and those strings are nothing short of what THEY say YOU must do. How much intrusion and control is TOO MUCH???

    Fourh, you're right churches DO NOT need to incorporate but to get that tax subsidy from the government they do and file for government #'s and approval, placing the governmnet as supreme sovereign over the church - that's who is in charge of CORPORATIONS, the government NOT the Lord.
     
  20. StraightAndNarrow

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    The church is in charge of worship activities. The state is in charge of taxes. (Render unto Caesar.....)
     

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