Are the Elect under wrath of God Until actual salvation then?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. Yeshua1

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    yay or nay, from the scriptures!
     
  2. convicted1

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    You already know this, and yet ask anyways??
     
  3. JonC

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  4. Yeshua1

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    Our friend Van seems to have his doubts concerning this area though!
     
  5. salzer mtn

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    So those that are in agreement that Gods wrath is poured out on the elect before conversion are really saying, God changes his mind, he cannot be trusted to keep his word. They are saying the scripture Mal 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not, Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever is not so. You are saying that men are under the wrath of God but yet he loves the whole world, or that he loves the elect but not before they are saved. There is no consistency in this. If God changes is mind how could you even believe in the scripture that says the saved have eternal salvation ?
     
    #5 salzer mtn, Sep 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2014
  6. salzer mtn

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    So how are we to preach to sinners, the lost, the wicked. Number one we know all men without Christ are lost. What we don't know is who is the wicked in Gods eyes that are not elect and who is a sinner who is elect. The word sinner in scripture can mean the wicked lost in Gods eyes or it can mean a sinner that the Lord has revealed himself too and caused him to see himself as a sinner before God. As the publican in Luke 18:13 God be merciful to me a sinner and Apostle Paul who readily admitted he was the chief of sinners. So how do we preach Christ to these people if all were in the congregation ? Do we preach God loves you and has a great plan for your life ? Do we preach God only saves the elect so it may include you or it may not ? We preach Christ saves sinners, Christ receives sinners, Christ died for sinners, but in doing this we must make them understand a sinner that Christ receives, and saves, and died for is a person that Christ makes a sinner. If God once reveals himself to a person in all his majesty, this person will cry out, I am a sinner, Lord have mercy on me. Once God has made you a sinner, you are a saved sinner, you are a sinner that has a saviour and needs a saviour all the days of your life. In the mind of these saved sinners at the time Christ was dealing with them about their sins they thought they were under the wrath of God but after they came to know the saviour they realized they were always loved of the Father.
     
    #6 salzer mtn, Sep 9, 2014
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  7. Jerome

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    Ephesians 2:1-3

    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
     
  8. salzer mtn

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    As I have already stated, this is not speaking of the wrath of God toward us but our wrath on display. The scripture is talking about our nature, this is what we were by nature, children of wrath.
     
    #8 salzer mtn, Sep 9, 2014
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  9. Yeshua1

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    We were in the same lost state as those unsaved by the Cross until Jesus became our Lord and Saviour theu faith though, correct?

    As the Bible teaches that ALL of us were born in the likeness of Adam, and thus have His fall accounted to us until time of our salvation though. correct?
     
  10. salzer mtn

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    Yes, so because of this we had a nature that is full of wrath, man can't you see it ?
     
  11. Jerome

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    Geneva Bible note at Eph. 2:3

    "Men are saide to be the children of wrath passively, that is to say, guiltie of everlasting death by the iudgment of God, who is angrie with them."
     
  12. convicted1

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    Bro. Salzer,


    You're fringing upon eternal justification...
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    saved before we were even born here?
     
  14. convicted1

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    No...please google it...it has sinners...the elect, even when sinners...weren't under God's wrath...if I'm understanding this doctrine correctly...
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    But in order to not being under the wrath of God , then one has to be in christ, so eternally saved, by that viewpoint!
     
  16. Jerome

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    Is this somehow related to the two salvation theory some Primitives have devised, their 'time salvation' and 'eternal salvation'?
     
  17. Van

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    You know a lot less than that.

    1) You think you know God chose foreseen individuals before creation for salvation based on your understanding of Ephesian 1:4. But the verse does not say whether this election is individual or corporate. So you "know" what you have "assumed."

    2) You think you know that there are "elect sinners" yet no verse says that, in fact, scripture precludes the concept, for no charge, i.e. sinner, can be brought against God's elect.

    3) You think you know that you were a sinner before you were saved, and you are correct. But then you believe you were an elect sinner, and that is an unbiblical concept.

    4) You think God saves the elect, but scripture teaches God saves sinners by choosing (electing) them for salvation through faith in the truth.

    5) Yes God makes us sinners, whether we are aware of it or not, for we are conceived in iniquity. And yes, God's revelation makes some of us aware we are sinners, by nature children of wrath. But not all self aware sinners are saved. That is yet another assumption, Jews know they are sinners, yet reject Christ.

    6) And lastly, those that are saved know they were sinners like the rest, and were living not under God's propitiationary shelter, but without mercy.

    Bottom line, you know a lot less than you believe you know.
     
  18. salzer mtn

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    Was a sheep ever a goat ? No. Luke 15: 6-7 Rejoice with me ; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons which need no repentance. Rom 8:29-30 These verses are spoken of the elect in the past tense. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified them he also glorified. Even though our calling, and our justification happens when we are living and our glorification happens when we die, all of these things are spoken as if they have already took place concerning the elect in the mind of God because he does not measure time as we do.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    Haven't all , save Jesus, been born under the judgement of the Fall of Adam though? As sinners, until saved by Grace of God?

    To not be a child of wrath, need to have a new nature, are you saying the Elect are born in that condition then?
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    Think they hold that rhe Elect will always get to heaven, but may ot may not get saved on earth?
     

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