Are the European Doctorates...

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by TCGreek, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I have a question for the guys:

    1. Are the European Doctorates superior to the American and SA doctorates? If no, here's another question,

    2. Why do we then gravitate toward the Europen doctoral holders, Carson, Grudem, Piper, and so on?
     
  2. Paul33

    Paul33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think that they are. They are definately more research oriented and less classroom directed than the American degree (not the SA).

    The names you mentioned all write a lot and happen to have European degrees.

    Playing off of your post, my pet peeve is that the American doctorates (especially at the seminaries) require far more course work than the European doctorate. I know of one person who earned his doctorate at St. Andrews without having to take German or French or Latin.

    Having learned Hebrew and Greek, is it really necessary for a Ph.D. student in NT/OT/Systematics to have to learn another two languages - languages he will most likely never use (German/French)?
     
  3. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    2
    Comparison to SA Doctorates

    Hey to all who seek truth and light!!!:thumbs:

    This was just pasted one thread over. It could be used for comparison purposes if needed.

    [​IMG] Prospectus for SATS doctoral program
    This e-mail message was received by several people from another discussion forum from the SATS admissions office this week:


    SOUTH AFRICAN THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY'S DOCTORAL PROGRAMME

    Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Doctoral programme. Attached please find the application form for your perusal. We will not be able to enrol students until we have received the Registration Certificate from the Department of Education. In the meantime, you are welcome to submit your full application for review by the Admissions Committee. We will do our best to enrol you as soon as we receive the certificate. Further details will be sent in time.


    Options

    Our Doctoral programme is a research-based programme consisting of a dissertation. There is NO coursework in our DTh programme. The Admissions Committee holds the right to assign further reading or theological subjects should a candidate not meet the necessary requirements. Our doctoral programme offers you a choice of two fields of study, Biblical Studies or Practical Theology. You will conduct your research under the supervision of one or two experts in the chosen field of study. Our doctoral supervisors have been carefully selected to provide you with the high academic standards and the levels of service excellence for which we have become known.



    Dissertation

    On enrolment you will be required to complete RES6600 Theological Research Methodology, a course which culminates in the submission of your dissertation proposal to the Postgraduate Committee. If and when your title is accepted, under the guidance of your supervisor candidates will be required to write approximately 200-250 page dissertation, (approximately 72,000-80,000 words, 12 point font, one-and-a-half spacing). There is no coursework and no examination. All work is submitted and returned via email, except the final bound copies. The full details pertaining to the formatting of your dissertation are contained in RES6600. Your dissertation will be assessed by two independent External Examiners, as well as an Internal Examiner, your supervisor, and if it is successful, you will be awarded the Doctor of Theology degree at the next Graduation Ceremony. Should you obtain a mark of 75% or above, the degree will be awarded cum laude. The maximum duration of this programme, which is at level 8 on the National Qualifications Framework, is six years.


    On achieving this qualification, students will be able to:

    1. Identify, understand, interpret, integrate, apply and communicate a body of new knowledge (original research) in interaction with existing knowledge (current state of research in the field of study).

    2. Apply logical, theoretical, analytic, creative and systematic thinking, effectively to solve a range of problems within a focused research context.

    3. Exhibit the ability to identify and address issues of ethical action and social responsibility in the field of research.

    4. Apply principles of sound research practice in collecting, organizing and evaluating information in terms of a critical understanding of relevant research methodologies, techniques and technologies.

    5. Be aware of, and be able to interact constructively with, multicultural and multi -faith communities, from a theological perspective.

    6. Apply the insights of one or more disciplines to identify and critique issues of church and society.


    Entrance requirements

    To register for a Doctoral programme prospective students must have an appropriate Masters Degree (or equivalent) in an appropriate field, from an accredited institution.

    Certified (notarized) proof of the above should accompany the application form, together with a certified (notarized) copy of your ID or valid Passport.

    The Seminary offers a free, no obligation evaluation of your transcripts, which can either be faxed to us at +27 11 234-4445 or scanned and sent as email attachments to [email protected]. We will initiate a response to your request within two days of receipt.



    Pricing

    Research Proposal Tuition Fee (a max. of 12 months) R14000 ($2000)


    The candidate has a maximum 12 months to complete the research proposal, after which the applicant’s registration lapses.


    Thereafter, students are required to pay the annual tuition fee for each year enrolled, with a minimum payment of four consecutive years (including the proposal year). Should a fifth or subsequent year be necessary to complete the programme, the annual tuition fee will be levied.

    Fees are increased annually in January.

    FWIW!

    sdg!:thumbs:

    rd
     
  4. PatsFan

    PatsFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    SATS new doctorate

    Perhaps Bill Grover (UZThD), the new adjunct professor at SATS, could speak to language requirements for the D.Th at SATS. My sense is that the language requirements are driven by the focus of the doctorate. Perhaps there are less language requirements for those majoring in practical theology than for those focussing on Biblical Studies. I don't think French and German studies are required, but I might be wrong about that?

    Tom
     
  5. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    2
    Pats Fan Response

    PF,

    Good to hear you on the thread.

    I talked with SATS via email a month or so ago. They have not finalized the ThD/DTh program as yet. It is supposed to, as I understood it, to be through all of the governmental hoops and they would be able to offer it after the first of the year.

    But U Z ThD might know some more information. He continues to amaze me with his knowledge and insights.

    sdg!:thumbs:

    rd
     
  6. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==I think it depends more upon the individual than the school. I spend most of my days working with people who hold PhDs from various schools in various academic subjects. Some of these people are smart, insightful, and interesting to talk to about their subject. Others are 'out to lunch', boring, and lack social skills. Still others are not that smart at all (though they may have great social skills). These professors have their doctorates from a variety of different schools in the United States and outside of the United States. Both groups of schools have good representatives and poor representatives. So I don' think we can make broad statements about which is better.

    ==Because they are good teachers. I am not sure it has anything to do with where they earned their doctorate. There are plenty of men who have degrees from American universities. I think of John MacArthur, James White, Tom Ascol, D James Kennedy, Gary Habermas, Craig Blomberg, and others.
     
  7. PatsFan

    PatsFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually John MacArthur does not have an earned doctorate. He has two honorary doctorates.

    http://www.tms.edu/facprofile.asp?profid=7
     
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Well, we can't overturn firsthand knowledge.

    2. Is it just the individual or does a school equip and individual to perform well? But then, not everyone performs well as you just pointed out.

    3. Then it can be a combination of both school and student, but then even some students who attend substandard school can perform exceptionally well.
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't have much real firsthand knowledge here but have read a good deal of the books and dissertation monographs by lots of professors. It seems that the lines separating conservative and liberal are less distinct in the European professors. I quite like Richard Bauckham, Martin Hengel, Larry Hurtado and many others. They are conservative for sure - but they may not necessarily "tow the line" on particular issues as it seems that the American profs are more likely to do. Does that make any sense??
     
  10. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Well actually we can, but I was just giving my experience. I was not trying to lay down "the law" (so to speak- :laugh: ).

    ==A school can do a fine job of teaching and equiping, but that does not mean the graduate will live up to the teaching. Therefore I think it comes down to the person.

    ==That is very true (which does not excuse substandard schools, of course). Some folks with PhD from wonderful schools are substandard in their knowledge and practice. So it goes both ways. Again I think we are back to the student.
     
  11. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
     
    #11 UZThD, Sep 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2007
  12. PatsFan

    PatsFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good info, Bill. I have a lot of good feelings about SATS. I think they are going to really be a force in the international Evangelical theological community before too long. I had a chance to examine one of the readers used for an undergraduate systematic theology class and talk to a SATS student during a visit to South Africa in the summer of 2006. (The reader had exerpts from Erickson and Grudem, I believe). I wish I had had a chance to to visit SATS, but I was on the east coast in a city called Durban.

    Did you say the requirements for the M.Th at SATS appeared more rigorous than the Th.M thesis requirements at Western? Please keep us posted on your impressions of SATS after you start teaching.

    Tom
     
  13. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did you say the requirements for the M.Th at SATS appeared more rigorous than the Th.M thesis requirements at Western? Please keep us posted on your impressions of SATS after you start teaching.

    Tom[/quote]

    ===

    No I don't mean rigor in general. I refer only to a comparison of the one course on research I took as part of the ThM in Biblical Studies at Western Seminary in Oregon (1992-1994) to the SATS course RES5300. In that comparison, the SATS course is far more substantial, and I think unquestionably more effectual to ready one to research, than was my course at Western.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I researched this over the early part of the summer. I think it depends on where you get your education, and what you put into it. Some of the European programs are not as rigorous, according to those I asked. They are more degree mills. I actually emailed out of the blue some respected OT names that I could find and was discouraged from going the European, non-resident route.

    I was encouraged to find an expert in the field I want to specialize in and go there to study under him. But that would mean a resident degree and I am not that interested in that route at this point.

    I wonder about the SATS one. At first glance, it doesn't look substantial but that is just me reading what was said here at first glance. Even the respected European doctorates require at least some residency. I was looking into the University of Edinburgh and they require three months, and then periodic trips, which was tempting.

    To me, I am not sure that a non-classwork doctorate makes a lot of sense. It basically makes you an expert in the narrow field of your dissertation, it would seem, rather than making one an expert in a narrow field, plus competent in other fields as well.

    So this thread is intriguing to me ...
     
  15. Paul33

    Paul33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    But it seems to get you that hard to get teaching position.
     
  16. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think a good foundation is vital to do a research doc. Mine was BA,ThB,MA,MDiv (equiv) and ThM- 8 or 9 years all in Bib/Theol. Then I did a research ThD. SATS is of the opinion that six years can be sufficient. If it is not, other work may be required of the candidate.
     
  17. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    2
    U Z ThD Additional Response

    To all who are interested:

    I agree with Bill completely.

    To do my DM I had a "Diploma of Theology," later to be renamed the Associate of Divinity that was built on the 96 sem. h.r MDiv of Mid America Baptist Seminary. I then received a BS "Bible College Degree" from Mid South Bible College now Crichton College liberal arts Christian college. I then did an MA(R) from Harding University's Graduate School of Religion. Then I did my Master of Divinity from The Southen Baptist Theological Seminary with a focus on Higher Education and Biblical Languages. Then I did 39 PhD level hours from The University of Memphis in Rhetoric and Communication Theory and their cognates. All of these were HEAVY HEAVY on research. All of these were "intro" to the doctoral work that I would do at The University of the South's (Sewanee) School of Theology.

    There is a certain "apprenticeship" that is appropriate for doctoral level research. As my colleague Bill Grover has argued in other forums, a Master's degree that has a major research paper such as a thesis is nearly a MUST to do good doctoral work. The skills gained are absolutely mandatory if one is to do excellent work on the doctoral level, it seems to me. IMHO!:laugh:

    sdg!:thumbs:

    rd
     
  18. PatsFan

    PatsFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oddly I have come to appreciate a dissertation only doctorate by doing a D.Min that has been both coursework and a project/dissertation. As I am researching the various aspects of the handbook I am writing for my project--as well as researching the Biblical, historical and theological foundations of the project for the dissertation, it has been like taking 6 independent study courses in addition to my coursework.

    PL, Would you be willing to share more about your exploration of the European doctorates. Id be interested in hearing more about which schools seemed the best and which seemed to lack rigor. Thanks.

    Tom
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Part of what I did was email five well-respected OT people (Goldingay, Day, Longman, Van Gemeren, and Reimer; I think I emailed one other that didn't respond). Longman said that teaching positions are so few in the US that very few will hire someone with a distance ed PhD. He said he did not know of one distance ed program that he would recommend. Van Gemeren said essentially the same thing. Day is in England at Oxford and recommended residence (that's all they do). Goldingay was the only one with even a tepid recommendation of it, but he was not familiar with current UK programs. Reimer said that Edinburgh would do some arrangements, but would require some residence (I found out it was three months at the beginning and periodic meetings with your advisor).

    The University of Edinburgh seemed the most viable for me if I were going to go that route. In the field of my interest, they had some good profs.

    Most require an MPhil before you can do the DPhil, or something similar to that. i can't even remember which programs I looked at now. I looked at the UK programs as well as a couple of continental programs.

    In my research, I just could not find anything compelling at that point. But part of that is perhaps my desire to pastor. At this point, I don't really want to be an expert in OT; I want to be a better pastor and better leader.

    So I am rethinking my plans, while enrolling in two doctoral programs currently (a DMin and a non-resident PhD that does involve classwork). Where are you doing your DMin Tom?
     
  20. PatsFan

    PatsFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the info, PL. I wonder why the emphasis on residency? IMHO doctoral courses are not that different than masters level courses; the papers are longer; you read more and have a few more mini projects to work on. I'm not convinced that a lot of courses make or break a doctoral program. Perhaps residencies are valued for the increased contact with faculty and fellow students. I'm convinced that some of that can be achieved via distance learning. SATS, e.g. has an awesome reputation for its communication with students. Their faculty members strive to be highly communicative. I'm working on a D.Min at Ashland Seminary in Ohio. Half of my cohort of 14 graduated this past June. I'm one of the stragglers. I'm thoroughly enjoying it though. Did you say you are working on two doctorates? Tell me more about that. Blessings.

    Tom
     

Share This Page

Loading...