Are the European Doctorates...

I don't think that they are. They are definately more research oriented and less classroom directed than the American degree (not the SA).

The names you mentioned all write a lot and happen to have European degrees.

Playing off of your post, my pet peeve is that the American doctorates (especially at the seminaries) require far more course work than the European doctorate. I know of one person who earned his doctorate at St. Andrews without having to take German or French or Latin.

Having learned Hebrew and Greek, is it really necessary for a Ph.D. student in NT/OT/Systematics to have to learn another two languages - languages he will most likely never use (German/French)?

 

SATS new doctorate

Perhaps Bill Grover (UZThD), the new adjunct professor at SATS, could speak to language requirements for the D.Th at SATS. My sense is that the language requirements are driven by the focus of the doctorate. Perhaps there are less language requirements for those majoring in practical theology than for those focussing on Biblical Studies. I don't think French and German studies are required, but I might be wrong about that?

Tom

 

==I think it depends more upon the individual than the school. I spend most of my days working with people who hold PhDs from various schools in various academic subjects. Some of these people are smart, insightful, and interesting to talk to about their subject. Others are 'out to lunch', boring, and lack social skills. Still others are not that smart at all (though they may have great social skills). These professors have their doctorates from a variety of different schools in the United States and outside of the United States. Both groups of schools have good representatives and poor representatives. So I don' think we can make broad statements about which is better.

==Because they are good teachers. I am not sure it has anything to do with where they earned their doctorate. There are plenty of men who have degrees from American universities. I think of John MacArthur, James White, Tom Ascol, D James Kennedy, Gary Habermas, Craig Blomberg, and others.

 

Actually John MacArthur does not have an earned doctorate. He has two honorary doctorates.

http://www.tms.edu/facprofile.asp?profid=7

 

I don't have much real firsthand knowledge here but have read a good deal of the books and dissertation monographs by lots of professors. It seems that the lines separating conservative and liberal are less distinct in the European professors. I quite like Richard Bauckham, Martin Hengel, Larry Hurtado and many others. They are conservative for sure - but they may not necessarily "tow the line" on particular issues as it seems that the American profs are more likely to do. Does that make any sense??

 

==Well actually we can, but I was just giving my experience. I was not trying to lay down "the law" (so to speak- :laugh: ).

==A school can do a fine job of teaching and equiping, but that does not mean the graduate will live up to the teaching. Therefore I think it comes down to the person.

==That is very true (which does not excuse substandard schools, of course). Some folks with PhD from wonderful schools are substandard in their knowledge and practice. So it goes both ways. Again I think we are back to the student.

 

Good info, Bill. I have a lot of good feelings about SATS. I think they are going to really be a force in the international Evangelical theological community before too long. I had a chance to examine one of the readers used for an undergraduate systematic theology class and talk to a SATS student during a visit to South Africa in the summer of 2006. (The reader had exerpts from Erickson and Grudem, I believe). I wish I had had a chance to to visit SATS, but I was on the east coast in a city called Durban.

Did you say the requirements for the M.Th at SATS appeared more rigorous than the Th.M thesis requirements at Western? Please keep us posted on your impressions of SATS after you start teaching.

Tom

 

Did you say the requirements for the M.Th at SATS appeared more rigorous than the Th.M thesis requirements at Western? Please keep us posted on your impressions of SATS after you start teaching.

Tom[/quote]

===

No I don't mean rigor in general. I refer only to a comparison of the one course on research I took as part of the ThM in Biblical Studies at Western Seminary in Oregon (1992-1994) to the SATS course RES5300. In that comparison, the SATS course is far more substantial, and I think unquestionably more effectual to ready one to research, than was my course at Western.

 

I researched this over the early part of the summer. I think it depends on where you get your education, and what you put into it. Some of the European programs are not as rigorous, according to those I asked. They are more degree mills. I actually emailed out of the blue some respected OT names that I could find and was discouraged from going the European, non-resident route.

I was encouraged to find an expert in the field I want to specialize in and go there to study under him. But that would mean a resident degree and I am not that interested in that route at this point.

I wonder about the SATS one. At first glance, it doesn't look substantial but that is just me reading what was said here at first glance. Even the respected European doctorates require at least some residency. I was looking into the University of Edinburgh and they require three months, and then periodic trips, which was tempting.

To me, I am not sure that a non-classwork doctorate makes a lot of sense. It basically makes you an expert in the narrow field of your dissertation, it would seem, rather than making one an expert in a narrow field, plus competent in other fields as well.

So this thread is intriguing to me ...

 

But it seems to get you that hard to get teaching position.

 

I think a good foundation is vital to do a research doc. Mine was BA,ThB,MA,MDiv (equiv) and ThM- 8 or 9 years all in Bib/Theol. Then I did a research ThD. SATS is of the opinion that six years can be sufficient. If it is not, other work may be required of the candidate.

 

Oddly I have come to appreciate a dissertation only doctorate by doing a D.Min that has been both coursework and a project/dissertation. As I am researching the various aspects of the handbook I am writing for my project--as well as researching the Biblical, historical and theological foundations of the project for the dissertation, it has been like taking 6 independent study courses in addition to my coursework.

PL, Would you be willing to share more about your exploration of the European doctorates. Id be interested in hearing more about which schools seemed the best and which seemed to lack rigor. Thanks.

Tom

 

Part of what I did was email five well-respected OT people (Goldingay, Day, Longman, Van Gemeren, and Reimer; I think I emailed one other that didn't respond). Longman said that teaching positions are so few in the US that very few will hire someone with a distance ed PhD. He said he did not know of one distance ed program that he would recommend. Van Gemeren said essentially the same thing. Day is in England at Oxford and recommended residence (that's all they do). Goldingay was the only one with even a tepid recommendation of it, but he was not familiar with current UK programs. Reimer said that Edinburgh would do some arrangements, but would require some residence (I found out it was three months at the beginning and periodic meetings with your advisor).

The University of Edinburgh seemed the most viable for me if I were going to go that route. In the field of my interest, they had some good profs.

Most require an MPhil before you can do the DPhil, or something similar to that. i can't even remember which programs I looked at now. I looked at the UK programs as well as a couple of continental programs.

In my research, I just could not find anything compelling at that point. But part of that is perhaps my desire to pastor. At this point, I don't really want to be an expert in OT; I want to be a better pastor and better leader.

So I am rethinking my plans, while enrolling in two doctoral programs currently (a DMin and a non-resident PhD that does involve classwork). Where are you doing your DMin Tom?

 

Thanks for the info, PL. I wonder why the emphasis on residency? IMHO doctoral courses are not that different than masters level courses; the papers are longer; you read more and have a few more mini projects to work on. I'm not convinced that a lot of courses make or break a doctoral program. Perhaps residencies are valued for the increased contact with faculty and fellow students. I'm convinced that some of that can be achieved via distance learning. SATS, e.g. has an awesome reputation for its communication with students. Their faculty members strive to be highly communicative. I'm working on a D.Min at Ashland Seminary in Ohio. Half of my cohort of 14 graduated this past June. I'm one of the stragglers. I'm thoroughly enjoying it though. Did you say you are working on two doctorates? Tell me more about that. Blessings.

Tom