Are the preservation verses clear?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by try hard, Nov 4, 2002.

  1. try hard

    try hard
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    Is there one verse that definitly states that the word of God would be preserved in a translation?

    I have started this topic because I have seen people recently who post verses for the support of the kjv being preserved, and then I see people who say that they are taking verses out of context.

    Can one verse be validated 100% as to the preservation of the kjv? :confused:
     
  2. Johnv

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    If there is, how then is that verse to be understood in bibles that are in german, french, or spanish?
     
  3. Pastor_Bob

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    Ps 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations .

    Ps 45:17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations : therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever .

    Ps 102:12 But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations .

    Ps 135:13 Thy name, O LORD, endureth for ever ; and thy memorial, O LORD, throughout all generations .

    Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

    If the Word of God is not preserved in translations, one of two things have to happen:

    1. God has to lie. All of these things and more will, in fact, not be remembered to all generations. This, of course, is not an option.

    2. Those who do not read Hebrew and Greek are dependent upon those who do to tell them what the Word of God is.

    As far as a single verse declaring that the KJV specifically is preserved, you'll not find one. You'll not find one verse that says it is wrong to smoke crack cocaine either. You'll not find one verse that says it is wrong not to repay your automobile loan. You'll not find one verse that says it is wrong to frequent adult bookstores.

    God gave us the ability to see the principles of His Word and declare as truths things that are not specifically named, such as the above mentioned things.

    The KJV is a product of the preservation promises that God has given us. The Spanish Bible is a product of the preservation promises that God has given us. The German Bible, the Romanian Bible, the Russian Bible etc...are all a result of the preservation promises that God gave us.
     
  4. try hard

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    Not necessarily. The word here for "generations" means "ages" not "all people throughout all ages". Did God lie? Certainly not! I believe that God did preserve His word, in thosands of manuscripts, not translations. The Greek is far more complex than english. Hence, is why I believe he didn't preserve it perfectly in one english translation.

    What is the basis of your assumption that God must be lying if these verses are not true? Can you please find verses that are better than this? :( Any kjvo's have any imput, besides the moderator?
     
  5. Forever settled in heaven

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    not forgetting Ps 119:89--l Lamedh
    89 Your word, O LORD , is eternal;
    it stands firm in the heavens.
     
  6. zyzex

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    tryhard; No, I do not know of a verse that promotes a particular translation of the Scirptures. The only 2 scriptures that comes to mind concerning the the concept of purity of the written word are found in Rev. 22:18-19, and (collectively) II Pet. 3:16. Yet, it is personally held that the KJV, as popular as it is, is not the best available translation of the scriptures. Using the NASB, for me, is a better choice. That by comparing the translation to the KJV and the NASB, from a Greek-English lexicon bears this out.
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

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    Are you serious? I assume that if these verses are untrue, God has lied.

    I think these are doing just fine by themselves. The fact that you disagree doesn't change the fact that they speak of the preservation of God's Words.
     
  8. try hard

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    Are you serious? I assume that if these verses are untrue, God has lied.

    I think these are doing just fine by themselves. The fact that you disagree doesn't change the fact that they speak of the preservation of God's Words.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I will say it again. These verses are true.

    The problem is this:

    You: Definition of the quoted verses: Perfectly preserved word of God thoughout all time, no error allowed by man in the copying of it, and God "guided" the men the tranlators of the kjv to perfectly translate the word of God into english.

    God: Said,in the verses you quoted, that all generations(ages) would know His name, the thoughts of His heart, and that the counsel of the Lord endureth forever.

    Could you please show how He is talking about the perfect preservation of scripture?
     
  9. try hard

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    Any other kjvos out there who know of some good preservation verses? [​IMG]
     
  10. GrannyGumbo

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  11. try hard

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    Great link GrannyGumbo. Let's "discuss" if we can do that.
    Now to the most popular one,
    Psalm 12:5-8.

    "For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of teh LORD are pure words, as silver in a furnace of earth purified seven times.
    Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every sid, when the vilest men are exalted."

    The psalm is obviously an expression of David's confidence in the pure words of God. In the first four verses he prays for deliverance from the proud all around him who cannot be trusted(verse 2).

    Verse 5 gives the source of his(David's)confidence.

    In verse 6-8, David declares his expression for God's Word. In verse 6, Davids confidence in God's Word refers to his conficence in God's affirmation that He will deliver the afflicted(verse 5).

    Then in Verse 7, on the the basis of God's Word(verse 5-6), David delcares his assurance that God will preserve forever the righteous, who are being afflicted by the wicked of "this generation".

    The pronoun "them" cannot be referring to "words" due to grammatical reasons. It refers to the "poor" and "needy" of verse 5 and the "godly" and "faithful" men of verse 1, who the Lord will preserve [​IMG] .

    It just doesn't make sense to say that God will preserve His written word from the generation of David on throughout eternity.

    What about the generations before David?
    :confused:

    Was God not concerned about His Word then?

    Listen please, the point of the verse is that the righteous will never cease, the faith will never "fail from among the children of men".

    Verse 8 clinches the contextual argument.
    It talks about the ungodly all around him and how the ungodly all him from whom David and furture generations of the righteous will be delivered.

    Now let's talk about the Hebrew language problems with this verse. You know, in Hebrew, words have gender and number. The pronoun "them" is a masculine suffix wheras the noun "words" is feminine. Furthermore, in Hebrew verse 7 reads "You will preserve him from this generation forever".

    See how a little diggin in the Word of God can bring out the truth? Now this pslam makes a whole lotta more sense. [​IMG]

    Next verse?

    [ November 09, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: try hard ]
     
  12. GrannyGumbo

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    you got it all figured out, eh?
     
  13. narrow is the way

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    Greek Hebrew, Hebrew Greek blah blah blah! You Bible deniers, don't speak Greek or Hebrew so why must you go there for your translations? The KJV was translated from/or out of the Antioch text. All other text from Alexandrian text which is out Egypt and God brought the Israelites out of Egypt and their bondage, which these bibles hold you also in bondage because of their lies and deception. Let God be true and every man a liar. This debate has been going on for years, it came right out of the depths of hell for this cause and this cause only. If the KJV1611 was not the true english translated word of God then why would anybody question its' authority? I do not believe, please correct me if I'm wrong, that any other bible before the 1611 has been slandered, attacked, critized and crucified more than this Bible. Because of this, it should be enough to turn on somebody's light bulb that maybe this Bible is God's preserved word.
     
  14. BrianT

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    Jesus Christ, the Word of God, was in danger of being destroyed. Where did God send the Word, to preserve him? Egypt. Matt 2:13-15 (KJV).

    No one here is slandering, attacking, or crucifying the KJV. It is KJV-Onlyism we oppose, for it is a doctrine not stated in scripture, but rather a man-made myth, similar to the tooth fairy. Nice if it was true, but scripture tells us to test all things and avoid fables.
     
  15. try hard

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    Narrow is the way: Like the name [​IMG] However, If you read my post, you would notice that the main problem wasn't even in Hebrew. I just wanted to show how the verse fits into the context.

    It's not right to pull scripture out of context to fit support one's belief. Do you agree with that? Where is the verse that says the Av1611 is the purificated, perfect word of God?

    GrannyGumbo: No, I just don't like verses to be taken out of context to fit one's belief. Doing that takes away from God's word.
     
  16. ChristianCynic

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  17. av1611jim

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    [​IMG] Why? Oh why must you folks constantly attack the validity of God's pure words? I ask a simple question? How can one set of words IN ENGLISH be God's pure words and another set of opposite words IN ENGLISH also be His pure words? I recently read how a certain person INTERPRETED a set of words to mean the exact opposite of what the same words mean to another person. Is God this way with us? Is God the author of confusion? Does God say to one man..."is like a son of the gods" and to another..."is like unto the Son of God".?
    I direct you to Psalm 138:2. Here we see plainly that God has magnified his word above His name. And we all know, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain". Therefore to disparage His word is evidently MORE offensive to Him than doing so to His name.
    I direct you to the WORDS of His Son Jesus. John 17:14. Here we see Jesus has given us God's word, and the world hates us for it because we are not of the world. How can Jesus have given us God's word if it is not preserved? Same as giving us His life. It is eternal! Go see Psalm 119. Read it all. It's as plain as the land in Nebraska! Now go to John 17:17&19. Now go see Psalm 12:6. Here we see that the WORDS of God are pure words, and that WE are sanctified BY THOSE WORDS. Tell me please, "Mister Scholar" (whoever you are, for I am an unlearned man) how it can be that God's WORDS in David's day are pure but not in our day? Certainly you are not going to tell me that David had the 'Originals". How can that be? Moses penned the Pentatuech (sp?) centuries before Daivid's time, therefore the "Originals" did not exist for David. All he had were copies of copies, of copies....
    Has God's exact words been preserved? Yes. Are they in English? Yes, and in Spanish and in Danish and in Russian, and in Greek and in Ethiopian, etc. The fact that Russian is different than English doesn't mean a thing to the God Who has GIVEN us language in the first place. ( See Genesis 11) The words in English may be different than the words in Russian, BUT they are still the words of God. For those of you who would now ask," Where does it say that in the Bible?"...I reply, don't be obtuse. You KNOW it is not there per se, but you also KNOW it is there IN PRINCIPLE, for if it were not then HOW can we know for sure if anything written in the Bible is God's words at all? And for you who would use a straw man from Mormonism, fergedaboudit! Does not wash. Apples and turnips.
    But I digress. :(
    And now the meat of the meal. We concentrate on the English words. Why is it that there are now in print about 200 English versions. And almost without exception, EACH new one that comes along compares itself to the majesty and accuracy and belovedness of the Old King James Bible? Hmmm? Could be SUMPTHIN to that ol' Book? Naw! Couldn't be! After all, it is outdated, archaic, etc. The English language has changed "so much" since then.Oh yeah? So the English has changed? Ok, I'll give you that one. The NIV was published around 1970 or so. The NASB in the 50's. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that from 1950 to 1970 the English language changed so much that we NEEDED a new translation? How about the NKJV? It came out in the 1980"s I believe. The English changed so radically since 1970 to 1980 that we needed another NEW one? How about the NLT? It came out in the 1990's. We english changed so fast that our Bibles just can't keep up? :rolleyes: [​IMG] Now in spite of what some publisher has sold you, the facts are that all of these Bibles mentioned have based the MAJORITY of their texts on the Westcott-Hort, Nestle-Alund texts. While in contrast, the OKJV was based on the MAJORITY of the extant MSS. And NO discovery since then has shed any additional light on the MAJORITY reading.
    All this is just "scholareze" to say, God wrote only one Book. For we English people in 2002, it is still the OKJB. And I can think of only one personality who would foist on the church a counterfeit, or multitude of counterfeits, with the sole purpose and motivation of confusion and distraction.
    I need not go into all the 'arguements', evidences, etc. Many of you will not see it while claiming you can't see it. That is ok with me. In the meantime, who is winning the war of WORDS? You? Or that other personality? Who is bringing the confusion into your church? You or that other personality?
    I am in the uncomfortable positon of attending a SBC where everyone has a different translation. Rather than bringing more light on a given Scripture, it brings in confusion with comments like, "but MY Bible doesn't say THAT!". Tell me honestly all you MV'ers, where is the unity in such a fellowship like that? See John 17:8&17&20-21.
    I came from a church where everyone had the SAME translation and the UNTIY amongst us was such that we felt like going to church was a fulfillment of David's words,"I was glad when they said unto me, let us go unto the house of the Lord." (Loose quote)
    I wrote all this, not with the hope of converting you MV'ers but simply to express "one man's faith in his Bible". You see, it DOES come to that doesn't it? Where is your faith? In a God who can, did, and will preserve His words pure? Or in a man who will TELL you what God really meant to say?
    Sign me
    AV1611JIM [​IMG]
     
  18. Walls

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    My dear people,

    How is it that ye are saved? By faith correct? If then your salvation is dependent upon your faith, shouldn't you take the word of God in faith. When God wrote the Ten Commandments and noone seen Him except Moses, did the people question if was God's preserved word?

    Try hard,

    You are trying to hold God to something He wants you to take in faith. It is your job to research all Bibles and prayerfully let God help you choose His preserved word. For you to play games with God's word by even questioning His capability to preserve His word is also in fact questioning His existance. God says in the beginning He was the word. Go to the Lord and ask Him which is His word and then it will be a conviction for you one that noone can talk you out of. ;)

    [ November 10, 2002, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Walls ]
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    Where do you think your translation (the KJV) came from?? That's right ... the Greek and Hebrew that you don't speak. No one speaks biblical Greek and Hebrew anymore. They are ancient languages. However, there are a good many, like myself, who read both. I have not seen anyone here deny the Bible. Perhaps you could point out the statement where someone denied the Bible. All we have done is defend the biblical doctrine of inspiration which existed long before the KJV was around and will exist long after it is gone. The doctrine of inspiration never changes; language does. Therefore, when language changes, it necessitates that the Bible be translated so that God's word can be read and studied and lived by.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    Who has attacked the validity of God's pure words?

    So you now admit that different sets of words can still be the same word of God. This is what we have always said and it is what the biblical doctrine of inspiration supports.

    So you now admit that your doctrine is not found in the Bible, but rather has been added to the Bible. That is why we disagree with you. For those of us who hold only to the Bible as our final authority, we cannot tolerate the addition of doctrine.

    Demonstrably untrue. Many readings in the KJV have been shown to not be in the majority reading. As we all know, truth is not up for majority vote. 1000 copies of a error does not make it less an error.

    I share your faith in the Bible and in God. I use a MV beecause I find God's words refreshing in my own language. I find it easier to preach God's word to people who speak that same language. I find myself needing to do much less explaining about what God said since I switched to using a MV. It was the best switch I ever made. It has increased my faith in God and in his Word. It has increased my understanding. I wish all would seek the same.
     

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