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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Oct 7, 2011.
Or are they ALL under bondage of the flesh, and forced to sin?
Who is forced to sin?
Can you name even one time in your life when you were forced to sin? I can't.
What? You mean you have never felt the "cold steel" being pressed against your back, our your arm being twisted and wrenched up your back???
Now to be serious for a moment. None of us are "forced" to do anything. As sinners, we do just what comes natural to us, sin. However, when God intervenes, shows us where our sinful lives are taking us, it is up to us to choose life or death(believe Him or not). I say therefore, choose life.
EVERY time before jesus saved me, I was forced to do what my Flesh/sin nature wanted me to do!
My choice was to limit how just "how" much to sin in that area, but still was sinning!
So, you were forced to take that first drink, take that first puff off that "doobie", snort that first line of coke, sleep with that married woman(but limit it to only one time), etc. I am not saying you did any of these, but I am just following your reasoning here.
We can say no or yes to all of these things, correct?
IF it is not our particual vice, yes, but justsaying that the old man, sin nature living in us, compells us to sin, and we will, just choice is how much!
The worst heroine addict started with the first "shoot up". They had a choice to make, "do I do this or not?" They were not forced to do this, but made a choice to do it.
The worst drunk started with just one drink. It was their choice, and not force, that caused them to go in their downward spiral.
So, even in our sinful life, we had a choice to do that sin or not. I could have slept with married women, snorted pills, smoked dope, "shot up", etc. It is up to us to make the choice to do these things or not. We do not sin as a result of compulsion, but because we chose to.
Just saying that there IS a sin principle working in us, that our natures ARE at war with what God will often is...
We are sinners, so that our very nature, we willalways been choosing to do bad stuff, just limiting by choice just "how" bad that it gets!
I agree with Augustine that the "fall of Adam" created a nature passed down to all regarding the propensity to rebel and sin. But I also see in the creation narrative that man (we) are also created with the imago dei.
Choosing to sin is not the same thing as being forced to sin. I have sinned many times in my life, but I always had the choice and ability to do otherwise. And many times I have chosen to do right. I have found wallets with money in them three times in my life, twice there was several hundred dollars inside. No one saw me, I could have kept the cash and tossed the wallet. I realized this, and I was tempted. But I contacted the owner and returned the money.
No one is forced to sin. People who say this are making excuse for themselves and have not truly repented.
Dirty little secret
Calvinism likes to claim their view of scripture is God centric, whereas non-Calvinism views are more man centric. But Calvinism claims we have no choice but to pick and choose among various sins, and that we are unable to pick and choose any godly option, such as seeking God and trusting in Christ.
So at its core, it makes "the Fall" responsible, but neither God nor man responsible. So just another man-centric effort to avoid responsibility for not seeking God or trusting in Jesus.
This portion you got correct. Congrats. :thumbsup:
The rest that you claim as Calvinism in teaching is actually Bible truth.
So what "forces" you to sin now that you're saved?
Calvinism teaches men are born with a sin nature that compels them to sin, in fact it teaches that man is unable to do anything but sin.
How can you be sorry for something beyond your control? Does a person born blind ask God to forgive him because he cannot see? Or does a person born without legs ask God to forgive him because he cannot walk? If not, why should a man ask forgiveness because he cannot do good?
No, all sin is a choice, and even unsaved men have the choice of doing right or wrong. And because we have this choice, we are justly responsible for our sin.
Then the Apostle Paul, even while a Christian, did not realise that he could simply had chosen not to sin against god?
seems that his experience was that the sin nature dwelling in him was not able to be overcome EXCEPT by the Cross of Christ/grace of God, and the power of the HS in him!
IF NONE other than Christians can overcome their habit to sin, how can the unsaved do such?
Two things happen when you're saved. You are saved from the penalty of sin and you will want to please God, which will cause you to sin much less. But you always had a choice to sin or not, otherwise every unbeliever on earth would be in prison.
So those not saved, ONLY have the sin nature within them, can actually choose to not sin/
How can they choose always to not sin?
Think we basically agree on this, as I am referring to sins in general, while others are referencing to specif sins such as murder/stealing etc!
Paul said as touching the law he was blameless. So he was not constantly sinning.
We are flesh and have lusts and desires that war against the spirit, nevertheless we have the ability to choose between good and evil. What Paul was referring to in Romans 7 is his flesh that warred against his mind.
Are you really trying to argue that Paul lived a sinful life as a Christian?
Cornelius was not saved, yet the scriptures say he was devout, feared God, gave much alms, and prayed always. God heard his prayers and sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter who would tell him words where he might be saved.
Does this sound like a man who was utterly under the control of sin?
My point is that anyone can choose not to sin just as anyone can choose to obey the laws of our country. If someone is on trial for beating his wife, will the judge set him free if he says "oh but I had to, I can't help myself!"
If a person can obey civil laws, why can't he obey God's laws?
Yet we fail because as Jesus said "the flesh is weak".
Apostle Paul shows us that even a saved person can and will be under control of Sin IF they refuse to yield to the HS, and to have the power from/of the Cross in their lives!
We are either under the flesh, or under the living and dwelling HS in us...
Our choice in the matter!