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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Oct 5, 2012.
As claimed by many in the charasmatic Movement?
I don't think so.
Ephesians 2:20-22 seems to indicate they were only for laying the foundation of the church.
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
The qualifications to be an Apostle cannot be duplicated today. With the cannon of scripture being closed the function of the prophets has ceased.
The office of Apostle ceased functionally and formally after the death if the final commissioned apostle. It becomes pretty clear, in reading the patristic literature of this era, that there was a conscious decision by the early church to end this office.
As for prophet...well, I don't know. I do believe there are prophetic gifts around, and I've met some very powerful leaders who have spoken the word of God well. I just don't know.
NO! NO! and again NO!
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
... having been built... past tense.
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
How many are there in the future? 12. No more, no less.
There are more apostles mentioned in scripture that the 12. I think this is speaking of the truth that Christ laid down. That same truth the apostles built on...and so are we! All the offices are needed according to Eph.4 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of stature of the fullness of Christ.
We are not there yet! We will not be there until Christ returns!
These offices are a gift to the church!
After the death of the apostle John, man stopped these gifts of the apostle and prophet. Not God! By the beginning of the second century, the Church began to decay and decline towards the "dark ages." (5th - 15th. Cent.) From the Reformation (1517 AD.) until now the Spirit of God has been restoring the Church back to where they failed and declined.
This restoration has seen the Pastor, Evangelist, and Teacher placed back into the Church. At present (the last 60 years) the Apostle and Prophet are presently being restored and received in the leading edge of the Church. (some still refused these ministries) Note: 60 years would seem to be a long time. It is actual only 1½ hours before the Lord. (2Peter.3:8-9, Psa.90:4) We can not be like the "scoffers" of Peter's day and think that God plan revolves around us and our time reference.
You are calling Jesus a liar for one thing. He said He would build His church and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. All cults claim to have new revelation and that they are the faithful ones who restored what Jesus failed to keep going. I also did not realize you were omniscient and omnipresent and were everywhere all the time. How else could you make your silly claims?
My God cannot lie! And His church is here and always has been and always will be UNTIL HE RETURNS!
If you read in Rev. the churches through time are not perfect in their doctrine. IF you will even look at your own journey with God....we are not perfect yet!
"Wherefore he saith, When He (Jesus - who is "the same yesterday, and today." Heb.13:8) ascended up on high, He (Jesus) led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men," (Eph 4:8-9)
Today, He (Jesus) is still giving gifts unto men" because He is the same! The apostle Paul declared, that these apostles, prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers will continue "till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" (Eph.4:13)
This has not happened yet! Therefore these gifts are still required in the Church TODAY!
What is the unity of the faith?
That is the most arrogant and presumptive statement I have ever heard. Men and women that have sacrificed their lives for Christ, have been martyred for his sake, have done far more than you will ever see, have stopped the gifts. How naive, ignorant, and arrogant a statement!! Do you ever read church history?? Do you know anything of those who have gone before you?
Yet you infer that you are more spiritual then 20 centuries of spiritual giants! That is incredible. We should all bow down to you! Tell me. Which man had such power as to stop the gifts of the gifts of the apostles and prophets and go against God and stop his power. When was Christianity totally eradicated in this world, and the world totally defeated Christ? Christ promised never to leave himself without a witness. Yet you seem to believe that at some time in history the Holy Spirit was defeated, Christ left, and the gifts stopped. It was man's fault that God was defeated. Man defeated God according to your view of history. When did this happen?
He was speaking to a local church at that time when the apostles did exist, and the NT revelation was not complete. Take things in context. When the revelation was completed there was no more need for the office of prophets and apostles. The Word of God has taken that place.
There are not apostles. There are 12 names of 12 apostles written on the foundations of the New Jerusalem. Whose names will they be if the office of the apostle still continues today?
Nothing you said in that post was called for! Nowhere have I said I was more spiritual than anyone else!
God did not fail! Man did!
The Church has not yet come to "the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13-14)
This will happen regardless of what man believes because Jesus prayed it would happen. (John.17:21-23) In order for this to happen the apostle and prophet must function in the Church with the evangelist, pastor and teacher.
This is because God is a finisher! (Luke.14:25-33)
Without the apostle and prophet, there cannot be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Eph.5:27) A Church just like Jesus! (1Peter.1:18-20, 1John.3:2) This is why the Church that has come to the a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13-14) Without this, there can be no marriage! This is why we still need the Apostle, Prophet,
Evangelist, pastor and teacher!
The apostles had to have seen Christ and been eye witnesses of what they testified (John 15:27, Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor. 9:1, 1 John 1:1, Gal. 1:11-12, Acts 10:39-43, 2 Peter 1:16-19).
God bore witness to the inspiration of the words revealed to and recorded by the apostles and prophets by signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb. 2:3-4, 2 Cor. 12:12). The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). The apostles like Paul received the gospel “by the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12).
Don't make silly and presumptive statements without evidence.
Go through history and give accurate evidence how and why man failed God, and therefore God took away from man the gifts of the Spirit. Where and when in history did that happen? Who caused it? Give the facts.
The apostle Paul did not declare nor state your words or your interpretation "will continue."
Did you skip over the past tense "gave" in Ephesians 4:11?
Perhaps the apostles and New Testament prophets fulfilled their part in the building of the church by being the foundation [Eph. 2:20] and by receiving the New Testament Scriptures.
Puritan William Whitaker wrote: “The church is said (Eph. 2:20) to be built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, that is, upon the prophetic and apostolic doctrine; therefore the prophetic and apostolic doctrine, that is, the whole scripture, and the approbation of the same, preceded the church” (Disputation, pp. 347-348). Whitaker added: “The foundation of the prophets and apostles in this place actually does denote the scripture” (p. 348). Whitaker also observed that “Ambrose says that by the foundation in this place is understood the old and new Testaments” (p. 349). Again concerning Ephesians 2:20, Whitaker asserted: “this foundation denotes the doctrine of the scriptures, promulgated by the prophets and apostles” (p. 50). Reformer Francis Turretin noted that the word of God is “the foundation upon which we are built (Eph. 2:20)“ (Institutes, I, p. 55). Turretin maintained that “the church is built upon the Scripture (Eph. 2:20) and borrows all authority from it” (I, p. 88). In 1684, David Dickson wrote: “The Scriptures are the foundation, upon which the church is built (Eph. 2:20) (Truth’s Victory over Error, p. 3). Concerning Ephesians 2:20 in his commentary, John MacArthur asserted: “The foundation of the apostles and prophets refers to the divine revelation that they taught, which in its written form is the New Testament” (p. 82). Concerning this same verse, the Henry Morris Study Bible noted: “The ’foundation of the apostles and prophets,’ upon which the great house must be built, clearly refers to the Scriptures which they wrote under divine inspiration. The New Testament was given ‘by revelation‘ (3:3), ‘revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit‘ (3:5)” (p. 1809).
Are you misusing, misinterpreting, or misapplying Hebrews 13:8 since Hebrews 13:8 does not conflict with what the Scriptures teach elsewhere?
What??? I can not believe I just read this! You actually admit that God did not take away the gifts?
I did not say God ever took away the gifts! MAN quit believing God for the gifts. It was failure on MANS part NOT Gods!!
Do you not seem to assume that your interpretations and claims concerning apostles cannot be wrong or are above being challenged or questioned?
You seem to think that there are no scriptural problems with your claims and assertions. How could any claimed "apostles" today be the foundation of the church in the time of the writing of the New Testament as indicated in Ephesians 2:20?
Where do the Scriptures present the qualifications for a claimed "continued" office of apostle as it presents for office of bishops/elders/pastors that the local churches were to see, consider, or examine?