Are There Scriptures That Say...?

Um, mighten't that be called "complacency?" or growth interrupted?

He's got a lotta love for it just to be Him alone in creation.

OK, well I hope John knows what he is talking about. :laugh:

skypair

 

TC,

You taking a long weekend?

skypair

 

Well, I agree that it is "out there." It mostly helps me understand "in the image of God" -- it helps me understand God's larger purpose, to find a people like Him to commune eternally with -- it helps me understand Rev 22:4 regarding God, that they will "see His face." See, no man at any time has seen God" (He is a Spirit) but here it is plainly said that His face is seen.

No sir. Nor does that diversion get you off the hook for not understanding the "great mystery." Are you going to ever address what you do or don't know about that?

skypair

 

TC, compare Rev 3:12 to Rev 22:4. Whose name is on their foreheads? The "name of my God," right? That's whose face they see. It is the throne of God and the Lamb, right? Are you saying they see a "Lamb?"

You mean specifically 22:33-34, right? And what does 1Cor 2:16 ("you have the mind of Christ") mean to you? What does "For ye have an unction from God and ye know all things" mean to you?

I wouldn't take "pride" if I were you. Again, are you or aren't you a "steward of the mysteries of God?" (1Cor 4:1) Or are you content as long as you have a job? So heresies is what I am teaching now, eh, "Mr. Jack Berean?" (You know what a "Jack Mormon" is, right?)

skypair

 

Correct-a-mundo, sir. Think about it in regards to your following comments.

This would have to be false pride and untrue of a pastor. Either that or you don't hold yourself capable or responsible to lead your flock.

"Belly up to the bar" and start learning these things that you don't know.

Well that's a relief to me! I thought for a minute you were accusing me being one.

I'm moved out to TX now and will be quite busy but I will try to stay in touch.

skypair

 

One Perfect Plan

My understanding is that there is only one Plan of God . . . Jesus Christ.

He is the reason that everything was created . . .
He is the reason God allowed man to fall . . .
He is the reason God elected Israel . . .
And the reason God gave them the Law . . .

Jesus isn't just the reason for the season . . .
He is the reason for everything
And everything that has happened . . .
Has served this one purpose . . .
That the Father might be glorified in the Son.

One Perfect Plan from beginning to end . . .
The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

Hi, Deborah :wavey: Welcome to BB!

You're a "One Covenant" person, eh? Except we can't find God making that exact covenant with His Son anywhere in scripture. Do you have a particular passage in mind on that?

What you allude to is basically this: That salvation is always by faith in God -- ALWAYS! But God appeared in 2 distinct forms: The spiritual God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the physical God, Jesus, of the new covenant.

Of course, your next response is going to be that they "saw Jesus afar off and worshipped Him." Yeah -- as God KING, not as "son of man" LAMB. Remember, they were blinded to the glory that should come from the time of Moses even till NOW, 2Cor 3. Basically, they saw "signs" of what was to come. And they desired "signs" to affirm it as well --- which Jesus gave in abundance but which they rejected! You just cannot say that they entered into the "new covenant by the blood of Jesus" Whom they rejected and crucified.

skypair

 

Hello Skypair and thank you for the welcome.

>You're a "One Covenant" person, eh? Except we can't find God making that exact covenant with His Son anywhere in scripture. Do you have a particular passage in mind on that?

I am absolutely a one covenant person. There is no other means of reconciliation and fellowship with God other than through the Covenant of faith in the blood of Christ for remission of sin. Allow me to point out that God didn't make the New Covenant with His Son, God made the New Covenant with man, and Jesus is the mediator of that covenant: "But now hath [Jesus] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." Hebrews 8:6

But my point was that the manifestation of Christ was the "plan" of God from the very foundation of the world and the reason everything was created: "[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him . . ." Colossians 1:15-16

So if the whole creation was made for Jesus, then the history of that creation can only rightly be understood as preparation for and testimony to his coming into the world to accomplish God's purpose . . . that the Father might be glorified in the Son. It is for this reason that Jesus is "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last."

I didn't realize that I alluded to salvation being by faith, but I heartily agree with the precept. There is no reconciliation and fellowship with God outside that Covenant which has been established upon the redeeming power of the blood of Christ.

>You just cannot say that they entered into the "new covenant by the blood of Jesus" Whom they rejected and crucified.

You cannot paint all Jews with the same paint brush any more than you can all Gentiles. Not all Jews rejected and crucified Jesus, that was the work of the political leaders of the nation, which the New Testament makes abundantly clear. Multitudes of Jews, including many priests and rabbis, heard the Gospel and believed and were saved. Granted, it was a pitifully small remnant of the whole Jewish nation, but God never said he would save the whole nation, or even a whole generation of Jews, but rather God said, time and again, that although Israel was as the sand of the seashore for multitude, yet only a remnant would be saved. Paul himself testified of this and stated that even at the time of his writing there was a remnant of Jews whom God had saved. This blessed and faithful remnant of Jews from among the thousands of Israel inherited the promises while the rest, the vast majority, were cast out, disinherited, and destroyed.

Now that God has accomplished his plan of salvation and opened the final, perfect way to reconciliation and fellowship with Him, He deals with the Jew in exactly the same way as he does the Gentile . . . either through faith in the redeeming blood of Christ . . . or not at all.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

So where's the covenant with all believers of all time?

This suggests that there are at least 2 covenants -- one better than the other. One for Israel and one for the church. That's not one covenant.

Yes, indeed. But please acknowledge why there are at least 2 now. The reason is that God offered Christ to religious Israel and they rejected Him (whereas they will accept one "who comes in his own name.") It was then that God offered the new covenant to the Gentiles. This is the meaning of the olive tree in Rom 11 -- they were "cut out" of religious Israel and we were grafted in. The now Gentile/wild tree is grounded in the old covenant but bears new fruit.

For now He does. But how about during the tribulation? or do you believe in such?

In the tribulation, true religion is going to revert to "gospel of the kingdom" (Mt 24:14) -- the same one John the Baptist, Jesus, His 12 and His 70 disciples preached. That message was not that saving power of faith in Christ but that "The King is near or 'at hand.'" And, of course, then He comes to set up His kingdom and establish among them His "gospel of grace."

skypair

 

Hello Skypair,

>So where’s the covenant with all believers of all time?
The New Covenant is the covenant that reconciles all believers of all time with God. There is no other covenant that can or ever could do that . . . only the New.

>This suggests that there are at least 2 covenants.
There were two covenants, but as Paul stated, one of them, the Old, was ready to vanish away. And within a very few years of this magnificent letter to the Hebrew Christians in which Paul expounds the transition from the old Levitical economy to Christianity, within a few brief years the final jots and tittles of the Old Covenant were fulfilled and it came to an end. It is no longer in force. The whole point Paul was making about the New Covenant being better than the Old Covenant was the very fact that the Old Covenant was only temporary anyway. It was never intended to be the final solution to sin, not for anyone, not even for Israel. The Old Covenant only provided a temporary covering for sin. That’s why the sacrifices had to be repeated, day after day, week after week, month after month, season after season, year in and year out. And yet, think of it, no matter how many rivers of blood were poured out on that mountain top, the Old Covenant blood of bulls and goats could never wash away sin. It could only provide a temporary atonement . . . until the coming of that once-for-all-forever sacrifice-to-end-all-sacrifices . . . the Lamb of God.

Allow me also to comment that the blood of Jesus is not only efficacious for the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles in New Testament times, but it is just as efficacious for the salvation of all the believers of the entire Old Testament period . . .

“And for this cause Jesus is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.” Hebrews 9:15

Considering the efficacious power of the blood of Christ, is it any wonder we Baptists have always maintained:

What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Oh, precious is the flow,
That makes me white as snow,
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

The New Covenant is the only covenant now (obviously so) for many reasons, but chiefly for the simple reason that the New Covenant of faith in the blood of Christ is totally efficacious . . . there is nothing more than needs be done for any man, Jew or Gentile, to be completely and forever reconciled with God, which is the very point Paul is making about the New Covenant being so much better than the Old.

The Law Covenant will never be reinstituted. It was never intended to be anything more than a witness to and preparation for the Gospel. Once Christ came and fulfilled the Old Covenant, it had served its purpose, and as Paul taught, it passed away. But the Old Covenant did not pass away quietly or without signs . . . it passed away with violence and death and war and famine and terrible tragedy, a time of great tribulation . . . .

In Christ,
Deborah

 

Good, there "were" 2 covenants. Point made.

Actually, there is one more covenant that will reconcile us perfectly to God -- the "everlasting covenant." See, these covenants were given in "stages" -- the OC saved the soul, the NC saved the spirit, and the EC will save the body. Each was spoken of prophetically in the previous covenantal period(s) for the saint to look forward to. Each covenant included the "work" of the previous -- i.e. the NC saved spirit and soul; the EC saves body, spirit, and soul together.

Very perceptive, Deb! Most Christians have a hard time seeing this period between cross and temple destruction when God would bring the OC saints into the NC (Acts 19:1-6, etal.)

But there is also a "mirror image" period coming called the 70th week of Daniel wherein those who rejected the NC -- including national and religious Israel -- will be brought into the OC which will be in force (sacrificial system) alongside the NC (Christ's reign) in the MK, Ezek 40-46. To accomplish this, the NC believers are taken out (raptured) and temple worship in Jerusalem reinstituted, right? The "foolish virgins" -- those not-quite-believers in the NC -- will go out and "buy of Me" (Mt 25:9, Rev 3:18) and the Jews will return to God in the OC way in the trib and in the NC way in the MK.

Yes, but it could not be appropriated by those believers while it was known.

My comments above stand. During the trib and MK, a sacrificial system will exist right along side the Person it represents. That system will not function in the same way. Messiah's law, not the Mosaic law, will be enforced and the NC Mediator will be close at hand as well. And as you no doubt know, there will be huge numbers of hypocrites (law-keepers) in the MK who will revolt with Satan at the end.

skypair

 

Well said, Deborah:thumbs:

peace to youraying:

 

>. . . a sacrificial system will exist right along side the Person it represents.

Skypair,
The “sacrificial system” of the Law was a system of sacrifices and offerings based on the shedding of lifeblood to atone for the sins of the people of Israel that they might be acceptable to serve God. The coming of Christ and his sacrifice of himself has forever rendered any other sacrifice or offering for sin unacceptable to God, including those of the Law.

I respectfully ask you to read prayerfully Hebrews 9 and 10. Paul goes to great length to explain why the New Covenant is so much better than the Old, and to argue for the supremacy of the blood of Christ over that of bulls and goats. But the gist of these chapters is that the New has replaced the Old, not been added to the Old, but replaced the Old, and therefore the Old was about to pass away, not temporarily, but permanently.

But pay special attention to 10:5-20 where Paul quotes the beautifully poignant Messianic prayer of Psalm 40:6-8 where our Savior recognized that the supreme sacrifice required by God was not the sacrifices and offerings of bulls and goats, but his own body of flesh and blood which God had prepared for him. This was what the ultimate sacrifice which the holiness of God required, and this was the one perfect sacrifice which would replace, not be added to, but replace the sacrifices of the law. But listen to how Paul explains it all . . .

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of those things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not ceased to have been offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins . . .

And then begins the beautiful Messianic song of surrender . . .

“. . . Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepare me: In burnt offering and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God . . .”

And then Paul repeats those beautifully prophetic words of surrender . . .

“. . . Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offerings for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said I, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God . . .

And then Paul boldly proclaims . . .

“. . . He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

God took away the sacrificial system of the law in order that the sacrifice of the body of Christ might stand . . . forever.

Again, the New has replaced the old, not been added to it, or held up alongside it, but replaced it, and the old has passed away.

Which Paul stresses again and again . . .

“. . . by the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting until his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with [Israel] after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”

Even for those of Israel who are sanctified by the blood of Christ, their sins have been remitted, they are forever perfected, and there is no more offering for sin.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

Deborah,

Do you believe in the tribulation? in the MK that follow? The each have temples (Rev 11:1-4, Ezek 40-46). Care to elaborate with me what they are for?

skypair

 

Deborah,

Do you believe in a coming 7 year tribulation? in the MK that follows? The each has a temple (Rev 11:1-4, Ezek 40-46). Care to elaborate with me what they are for?

skypair

 

Once again, Deborah, well stated and finely exegeted. When you stick with scripture, as you do, you don't have to speculate so much.:applause:

peace to youraying: