Are these statements anti semitic?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Spirit and Truth, Apr 15, 2004.

  1. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Please read the excerpts below referencing the Jews and give your opinion:


    "...remember the very bitter pain Thou didst suffer when the Jews nailed Thy Sacred Hands and Feet to the Cross by blow after blow with big blunt nails, and not finding Thee in a pitiable enough state to satisfy their rage, they enlarged Thy Wounds, and added pain to pain, and with indescribable cruelty stretched Thy Body on the Cross, pulled Thee from all sides, thus dislocating Thy Limbs."

    "...thousands of insults, spits, blows, lacerations and other unheard-of-cruelties, tormented..."

    "...remember the bruises which Thou didst suffer and the weakness of all Thy Members which were distended to such a degree that never was there pain like unto Thine. From the crown of Thy Head to the Soles of Thy Feet there was not one spot of Thy Body that was not in torment..."

    "...recall the pain Thou didst endure when, plunged in an ocean of bitterness at the approach of death, insulted, outraged by the Jews..."

    "...plunged in an abyss of suffering from the soles of Thy Feet to the crown of Thy Head. In consideration of the enormity of Thy Wounds..."
     
  2. Refreshed

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    I don't know. Was God anti-Semitic when he sent them into bondage in Babylon?

    Those seem like blunt facts to me.

    This is what would be something blatantly anti-Semitic:


    You thought I was going to write something, didn't you. Hahahaha. Sorry.

    Jason
     
  3. uhdum

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    The New Testament itself continually refers to "the Jews" as delivering up Jesus. In Acts Peter even accused them of crucifying Jesus. He later accused them of "slaying Jesus and hanging Him on a tree."

    Seems to the Jews, the New Testament has been anti-semetic for hundreds of years. We know it's not, but still...

    God bless!
     
  4. sharpSword

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    uhdum "The New Testament itself continually refers to "the Jews" as delivering up Jesus. In Acts Peter even accused them of crucifying Jesus. He later accused them of "slaying Jesus and hanging Him on a tree."

    Seems to the Jews, the New Testament has been anti-semetic for hundreds of years. "

    Would that be all Jews or just the ones actually and historically present that are being referenced to by Peter--who was Jewish--and the other apostles--who were also Jewish? And all the Jewish people that were saved and it is recorded in the Scriptures...were there no Jews saved?

    The question was, are those quotes anti-semitic? Yes. Very clearly so.
     
  5. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Here is why I am asking:


    "Why are they calling her a Nazi? …Because modern secular Judaism wants to blame the Holocaust on the Catholic Church. And it's a lie. And it's revisionism. And they've been working on that one for a while."

    On criticism of Anne Catherine Emmerich,
    a nineteenth-century nun whose writings influenced his
    portrayal of Jesus' death. The New Yorker, September 15, 2003

    S&T:

    Now by these excerpts posted above at the beginning of the thread, of the prayers of st bridgit, which Mr Gibson has prayed for the last fifteen years that directly point the finger at the Jews, while eliminating all roman complicity, isn't this one and the same as his above statement? Could this be viewed as a double standard?
     
  6. donnA

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  7. uhdum

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    My statements were given to point out that acknowledging the Jews' role in Jesus' death does not necessarily make the statements anti-semitic. I believe they are not if they are balanced with the fact that we ALL crucified Jesus... and that He voluntarily laid down His life for us.

    Having just finished an exam here at college, my brain is fried and I fail to see why you are asking a clarification of whether I meant "all Jews" or "Jews historically present" and whether Jews were saved or not. Forgive my ignorance. I'm trying to find where you are going with the question, but I can't. And yes, some Jews are (and were) saved. You knew the answer to the question already.

    God bless!
     
  8. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Let's critically analyze the first excerpt:

    "...remember the very bitter pain Thou didst suffer when the Jews nailed Thy Sacred Hands and Feet to the Cross by blow after blow with big blunt nails, and not finding Thee in a pitiable enough state to satisfy their rage, they enlarged Thy Wounds, and added pain to pain, and with indescribable cruelty stretched Thy Body on the Cross, pulled Thee from all sides, thus dislocating Thy Limbs."

    1) Did the Jews do any physical nailing?

    2) Does scripture report that the Jews did the physical nailing while enlarging the wounds to satisfy their "rage"

    3) Does scripture report that any Jew dislocated Jesus' limb, or anyone for that matter while nailing Him to the cross?
     
  9. sharpSword

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    uhdum "My statements were given to point out that acknowledging the Jews' role in Jesus' death does not necessarily make the statements anti-semitic. I believe they are not if they are balanced with the fact that we ALL crucified Jesus... and that He voluntarily laid down His life for us. "

    Having just finished an exam here at college, my brain is fried and I fail to see why you are asking a clarification of whether I meant "all Jews" or "Jews historically present" and whether Jews were saved or not. Forgive my ignorance. I'm trying to find where you are going with the question, but I can't"


    I was asking you to clarify whether you believe all Jews are meant or just the ones who were Scripturally or historically present. No mystery question really. I wanted you to clarify your statements.

    The Jews did not physically crucify Jesus or scourge Him...the Romans did. The quotes presented by S &T state the Jews did.
     
  10. uhdum

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    That's fine... I just didn't see what that had to do with what I said. Again, forgive me :D I assume Peter is referring to the Jews collectively in order to receive a response... in the next verse, they ask, "What shall we do?" Peter's statements were designed to lead them to conviction and repentance. Thus, whether some of them were there or not, he made his statements to convict them.

    You are absolutely right. I was just saying that Peter accused the Jews of it. I was also saying that even though these statements Peter made were not meant to be anti-semetic, Jews have always viewed them as such.

    God bless!
     
  11. freeatlast

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    No not in themselves, but they could vary easily be put into a context where they would be anti Semitic
     
  12. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    freeatlast:

    No not in themselves, but they could vary easily be put into a context where they would be anti Semitic

    S&T:

    Let's review my earlier analyses, and I will answer the questions that I posed:

    Let's critically analyze the first excerpt:

    "...remember the very bitter pain Thou didst suffer when the Jews nailed Thy Sacred Hands and Feet to the Cross by blow after blow with big blunt nails, and not finding Thee in a pitiable enough state to satisfy their rage, they enlarged Thy Wounds, and added pain to pain, and with indescribable cruelty stretched Thy Body on the Cross, pulled Thee from all sides, thus dislocating Thy Limbs."

    1) Did the Jews do any physical nailing?

    ANSWER:

    NO, not scripturally or historically.

    2) Does scripture report that the Jews did the physical nailing while enlarging the wounds to satisfy their "rage"

    ANSWER:

    NO, not scripturally or historically.

    3) Does scripture report that any Jew dislocated Jesus' limb, or anyone for that matter while nailing Him to the cross?

    ANSWER:

    NO, not scripturally or historically.

    So then what we have, is untruth, which is being used to incite feelings against an errantly named race, who did not scripturally or historically perform these acts, while attempting to eliminate the complicity of another race [the Romans]in these physical acts. The Jews complicity in other areas is clearly spelled out both scripturally and historically as far as the natural realm goes. In the spiritual realm, we are all accomplices.
     

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