Are we all vicars of Christ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by FLMike, Apr 14, 2005.

  1. FLMike

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    Seems like it to me. What'cha think?

    I'm prompted to ask because of a post that asked if the vicar of Christ is a false Christ.
     
  2. Living4Him

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    I would say yes to some degree.

    Meaning we are all agents of Christ to bring Him to all the world.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    A nice thing to "Say" on a non-Catholic board. Lets see what RC historians say.

    So - like the Pope WE are all "the supreme Ruler" of the church on earth???!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Lets see a more modern day "Definition" of THE Vicar of the Son of God -- the one who takes His place on earth.

    The book is in fact just "an interview" recorded. So the questions are as much a part of the book as the answers and the questions are "vetted" approved by the Church as much as the answers. The entire thing - is what is being promoted. They are not saying "here is an ignorant heteric journalst tripping up the Pope" as the preface to this.

    Vittorio Messori is in fact stating Catholic context and basic beliefs - and then asking the Pope to comment on them. The Pope can at any time say -- "That is just not correct".

    He does not.

    So in THIS CHAPTER FROM THE BOOK that has been quoted -- what do we find?

    Certainly a lot of error in text so far. Remember this IS the chapter it is not an introduction to the book itself. The book is nothing more than a transcribed interview.

    So now the CHAPTER CONTINUES with John Paul's reply

    So - are "WE ALL" in that position? Really?

    Is ANYONE in that position? Really?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Living4Him

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    Bob,
    You put too much stock into Thomas Bokenkotter who is not an othrodox Catholic, so his account is not entirely trustworthy.
     
  6. Kathryn

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    In Isaiah 22, the vicar of the king was the trusted servant who was given the keys in the kings absence. This entailed authority. He even was to wear the royal tunic. He wasn’t a false-king or an anti-king, he was the vicar of the king, still the king’s servant, doing the king’s work in his absense.

    Everyone in the kingdom didn't become a vicar of the king. I suppose however that the people in the kingdom in a lesser way could be said to represent their king. These subjects however don't have the authority of the keys to conduct everyday duties as the vicar would have.

    It comes down to who is given authority by the king, and who is made the administrative deputy, which is what vicar means. The keys of the kingdom are the key here.
     
  7. Kathryn

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    I forgot about the servant who is made the vicar of the king also becoming a "father" to the kingdom.

    Sounds like what Jesus told Peter about binding and loosening.

    "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

    [ April 15, 2005, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  8. BobRyan

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    #1. Can you show that any of your allegations against that historian are true?

    #2. Is it your belief that not only are all protestant historians wrong - but so are all Catholic historians that admit to historic facts / details that you would prefer not to see in print??

    How can you seriously be comfortable with such an approach? Are you engaging in revisionist hisotry that "only a certain kind of historian would agree to" or do you have proof that Bokenkotter is engaging in revisionist history. (Aside from your preference)
     
  9. BobRyan

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    No question about it - "everybody" can not be said to be the pope NOR even the vicar of the Son of God -- vicar of Christ (Representative of the Son of God who takes the place of the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity) the way the Pope wears that title.

    His claims are "unique".

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    The Title Vicar of Christ means to actually BE Christ on Earth.

    VICAR VICAR iously

    --to live "vicariously" through someone else or to be a SUBSTITUTE for. This is the Holy Spirit's role, and does not belong to any man.

    … Supreme Pontiff.
    The dictionary defines ‘pontiff’ as ‘pope, high priest, bishop’. The full title actually means ‘Great High Priest’. The fact is, this title has already been claimed by the Lord Jesus Christ. The book of Hebrews calls Him the “Great High Priest” (4:14, 8:1, 10:21). The thought being ‘Supreme Pontiff’ also includes the idea of ‘Chief Bishop’ or ‘Chief Shepherd’. Nevertheless even these titles have been given to the Lord by the apostle Peter (1 Peter 2:25, 5:4).

    "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

    "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

    Pontiff also means "bridge". Jesus came to be the bridge between God and man, and the Pope is trying to claim he has been given the role of Christ.

    "We [the popes] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty!"—Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, "The Reunion of Christendom," dated June 20, 1894, translated in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, New York: Benziger, 1903, p. 304.

    "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions [Latin: infernorum; hell]."—Op. cit., p. 26.


    The word we are looking for is BLASPHEMY
    Rome claims that the Roman pontiff "is acting for and in the place of Christ." Christ is God. The prophecy says "showing himself that he is God." Since the "pope" claims to be "in the place of Christ," he is showing himself that he is God.

    2 Thess. 2
    1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    the papal power had even begun to take form in the early church in the Apostle Paul's day. verse 7: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work".

    ------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com

    [ April 15, 2005, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    In an appeal to the emperor and nobility of Germany in behalf of the Reformation of Christianity, Luther wrote concerning the pope: "It is monstrous to see him who is called the vicar of Christ, displaying a magnificence unrivaled by that of any emperor. Is this to represent the poor and lowly Jesus or the humble St. Peter? The pope, say they, is the lord of the world! But Christ, whose vicar he boasts of being, said, 'My kingdom is not of this world.' Can the dominions of a vicar extend beyond those of his superior?"


    A striking illustration of the tyrannical character of this advocate of infallibility was given in his treatment of the German emperor, Henry IV. For presuming to disregard the pope's authority, this monarch was declared to be excommunicated and dethroned. Terrified by the desertion and threats of his own princes, who were encouraged in rebellion against him by the papal mandate, Henry felt the necessity of making his peace with Rome. In company with his wife and a faithful servant he crossed the Alps in midwinter, that he might humble himself before the pope. Upon reaching the castle whither Gregory had withdrawn, he was conducted, without his guards, into an outer court, and there, in the severe cold of winter, with uncovered head and naked
    feet, and in a miserable dress, he awaited the pope's permission to come into his presence. Not until he had continued three days fasting and making confession, did the pontiff condescend to grant him pardon. Even then it was only upon condition that the emperor should await the sanction of the pope before resuming the insignia or exercising the power of royalty. And Gregory, elated with his triumph, boasted that it was his duty to pull down the pride of kings. How striking the contrast between the overbearing pride of this haughty pontiff and the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who represents Himself as pleading at the door of the heart for admittance, that He may come in to bring pardon and peace, and who taught His disciples: "Whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." Matthew 20:27. Great Controversy pg. 57,58


    The pope claims to be the vicar of Christ; but how does his character bear comparison with that of our Saviour? Was Christ ever known to consign men to the prison or the rack because they did not pay Him homage as the King of heaven? Was His voice heard condemning to death those who did not accept Him? When He was slighted by the people of a Samaritan village, the apostle John was filled with indignation, and inquired: "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?" Jesus looked with pity upon His disciple, and rebuked his harsh spirit, saying: "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:54, 56. How different from the spirit manifested by Christ is that of His professed vicar. GC. 570


    Of course they have now put on a kinder gentler appearance but there's a reason for that.
     
  12. FLMike

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    vicar:eek:ne serving as a substitute or agent

    Shouldn't we all be acting as agents of Christ?
     
  13. Claudia_T

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    "A citizen of Prague, Jerome, who afterward became so closely associated with Huss, had, on returning from England, brought with him the writings of Wycliffe. The queen of England, who had been a convert to Wycliffe's teachings, was a Bohemian princess, and through her influence also the Reformer's works were widely circulated in her native country. These works Huss read with interest; he believed their author to be a sincere Christian and was inclined to regard with favor the reforms which he advocated. Already, though he knew it not, Huss had entered upon a path which was to lead him far away from Rome.

    About this time there arrived in Prague two strangers from England, men of learning, who had received the light and had come to spread it in this distant land. Beginning with an open attack on the pope's supremacy, they were soon silenced by the authorities; but being unwilling to relinquish their purpose, they had recourse to other measures. Being artists as well as preachers, they proceeded to exercise their skill. In a place open to the public they drew two pictures. One represented the entrance of Christ into Jerusalem, "meek, and sitting upon an ass" (Matthew 21:5), and followed by His disciples in travel-worn garments and with naked feet. The other picture portrayed a pontifical procession--the pope arrayed in his rich robes and triple crown, mounted upon a horse magnificently adorned, preceded by trumpeters and followed by cardinals and prelates in dazzling array.

    Here was a sermon which arrested the attention of all classes. Crowds came to gaze upon the drawings. None could fail to read the moral, and many were deeply impressed by the contrast between the meekness and humility of Christ the Master and the pride and arrogance of the pope, His professed servant. There was great commotion in Prague, and the strangers after a time found it necessary, for their own safety, to depart. But the lesson they had taught was not forgotten. The pictures made a deep impression on the mind of Huss and led him to a closer study of the Bible and of Wycliffe's writings. Though he was not prepared, even yet, to accept all the reforms advocated by Wycliffe, he saw more clearly the true character of the papacy, and with greater zeal denounced the pride, the ambition, and the corruption of the hierarchy." Great Controversy 99,100

    ok Im done, just wanted to give you all some contrast.
     
  14. music4Him

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    Ok then ...what about in the book of John where Jesus is talking about the Holy Ghost?

    John 14:26 -
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 16:7 -
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
     
  15. Kathryn

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    According to Webster dictionary:

    Vicar:
    1.
    one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy
     
  16. Living4Him

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    Of all the Catholic online bookstores that I shop, do not carry this book. I will have to find the Catholic website that stated the above reason for not carrying the book.
     
  17. FLMike

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    Of all the Catholic online bookstores that I shop, do not carry this book. I will have to find the Catholic website that stated the above reason for not carrying the book. </font>[/QUOTE]Everybody should acknowledge that it is possible to have heterodox views come out of one's own "camp". On the protestant side I offer Bishop Spong as an example.
     
  18. wopik

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    the real FATHER has a title of "Holy Father" (Jn 17:11), so why does a human priest attach this title to himself?


    Surely, the human priest doesn't think he is on equal footing with God.
     
  19. jacob62

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    Matthew 23-9 and call no man on earth Father...../Their knowledge has built up their pride....ever learning but never able to come to the truth.Beware of any people with college degrees for they are a prideful lot....wanting to be seen by men....sitting in the choice places...robbing widows...flattering God with words.....booksellers having itching ears ,be not a partaker in their wicked ways.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Well I can think of one reason ....

    Notice that the title of the book is taken from this opening question.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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