Are We As Mad As We Should Be?

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Martin, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. Martin

    Martin
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    "The New York Times wants Gitmo closed. The San Jose Mercury News claims that Gitmo nurtures a culture of death. The Cleveland Plain Dealer wants Gitmo closed. Journalists and editorial staffs are up in arms that there might possibly be some kind of torture occurring.

    So what do they say when torture OBVIOUSLY occurs?"

    Great opinion article written by Fox News host ED Hill...

    WARNING: ARTICLE CONTAINS GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS that some people may not need to read.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200419,00.html

    :tear:

    Note...in paragraph two Hill states, "How in the world could the Iraqi government have even contemplated pardoning terrorists who have killed U.S. military members?". To be fair it is my understanding that such terrorists were not part of the pardon plan. So I think she is wrong on this point.
     
  2. Daisy

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    Was it torture or corpse mutilation? - my degree of madness depends on such details.

    What "she" do you mean?
     
    #2 Daisy, Jun 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2006
  3. Martin

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    While I am sure we will never know the timeline of events (ie..what was done before they were killed, after, etc) I am sure it was probably both torture and mutilation. Either way I don't see near enough anger on the part of the American people, the Bush administration (who put them over there), nor the military leaders. It reminds me of Clinton after the USS Cole was bombed. It is sad. It is time to finish the war or just pull out. One way or the other this must stop. It is not our job to take freedom to other countries.

    Which she? ED Hill.
     
  4. Daisy

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    How can you be sure without knowing?

    It's not our job to invade a country, destroy civil order, allow foreign terrorists in and kindle a civil war either, and yet...

    Why do you want to "see" anger? Do we really need a public show? In what way would that help the situation?

    How do you propose to end the war "once and for all"? Which war are you talking about?

    Oh - I thought that was "Ed" rather than "E.D." I guess I just don't watch FauxNews enough, lols.
     
  5. LadyEagle

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    Only satan and his followers could be that evil. I have seen videos of some of the "torture" these people do to others and they would do the same to everyone posting on this board if they could. I pray for the families of our two soldiers.
     
  6. Martin

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    ==Due to the condition of the bodies (etc) it is clear they were tortured and/or mutilated.

    ==Let's not try to change the subject. The rightness or wrongness of the war in Iraq is beside the point here. Two American soilders were tortured and/or mutilated. Something, beyond the ordinary, should be done by our government. However it seems they are happy to pretend it never happened. Btw, Iraqis are also being tortured and/or mutilated by these people. Just a week or so before our two troops were killed three Iraqi soilders were beheaded (alive) on video tape. Something must be done. The rightness or the wrongness of the original invasion of Iraq is water under the bridge. We must now deal with the situation our actions, and lack of actions, have created.

    ==Because there is a time to be angry (Ecc 3:8), and there are times when there needs to be massive public outrage and anger. If the type of treatment these soilders were victims of is not a reason to get mad I don't know what is. Once the soilders were captured they should not have been tortured or killed (I agree with John Wesley on this point, "Thoughts Upon Slavery") since the issue of self defense is no longer in play. I find it interesting that there is more anger over the alleged torture at gitmo than there is over the clear torture and murder of these two troops. It makes me sick.

    ==I think it is clear that I am talking about the War in Iraq (which I don't support). How should we end it? I have no clue since I am not a military person. However I would advise the various politicians to take their hands off the mission and let the military do its job.
     
  7. Daisy

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    You said, "I am sure it was probably both torture and mutilation." Again, how can you be sure it was both without knowing? As I said before, my degree of madness depends on it.

    I didn't. My comment was in reply to your own, "It is not our job to take freedom to other countries." Don't make comments if you don't want them to be replied to.

    Are you saying that wrecking the country is not beyond the ordinary?

    Which people are "these" people?

    Yes, lets repair the damage to the country, restore civil order and leave.

    It's probably because we expect torture and murder from terrorists but not from ourselves.

    The military is the agent of the politicians.

    Do you remember how this war and reconstruction were supposed to pay for themselves? According to The Iraq Strategy (Annex D) - linkie - the plan was to sell off Iraq's assets and rewrite its laws, especially the tariff and copyright laws.
     
  8. Martin

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    ==Thanks to Saddam the country was already a wreck by the '03 invasion. Things started going down hill when he took power.


    ==Yes, but that will take alot of work, blood, and money.
     
  9. jereome10

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    My question to you is where was America's anger towards those being tortured in Gitmo, the torture flights and in Abu grab.

    Because America really has no place to take the high road here considering that we were the first ones to get caught in the act of torture and they are just paying back in kind.

    Afterall when you decide to stoop down and play the devil's game then you have to expect to play by his rules.
     
  10. Daisy

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    Well, jereome10, American has plenty of anger towards those being tortured - that's partly why we're torturing them. A lot of that anger is misdirected, but anger is not known for increasing rationality.
     
  11. Martin

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    ==I have seen zero unbiased evidence to prove there was/is torture at gitmo. As for Abu Grab I think there was plenty of outrage over what was done there. After all Abu Grab is all we heard about for how long? I am not sure, however, what your point here is. Do you think it is ok for them to slaughter two human beings because of the sins of some soilders at Abu Grab? Are you claiming two wrongs make a right? I certainly hope not.


    ==That is sick! It is a fact of war that some soldiers, in every army, will cross the line. That in no way represents the entire army or nation. There is zero evidence that the two soldiers who were slaughtered were involved in either Abu Grab or Gitmo so your point about "paying back" is not valid. Two wrongs never make a right.

    I also reject the idea that what happened at Abu Grab is any where near the level of torture that these two soldiers suffered.
     
    #11 Martin, Jun 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2006
  12. Martin

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    And Again

    O, and btw, they have done it again. Four Russians are their latest victims (see story below). I wonder if jereome10 will, once again, argue that it is just "paying back in kind"? After all one of the terrorists is quoted as saying that "it is also in revenge for our brothers and sisters and what they suffer of torture, killing and displacement by the infidel Russian government". The bottom line is that there is no justification for this type of behavior. Regardless of what they believe has been done to them, or their people, there is no way to justify the killing of hostages.



    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060626/ts_afp/iraq;_ylt=AnfLM37IBwlIeDZr5XBIInN34T0D;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    Their only justification is that the rest of the world outside of their religion are all infidels. Sick, sick, sick.

    But, there is no outrage. Sad.:tear:
     
  14. jereome10

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    Martin Perhaps you need to take a chill pill and then read the Sermon on the mount one more time and you will understand my viewpoint instead of trying to demonize me.

    Two wrongs dont make a right, and its plainly disgusting how the Christian community in this Nation has ignored and made excuses for all of the injustices and evil that has been done these past few years but hey at least they can see the evil that the Muslims are doing.

    So I ask you again where was your self righteous anger when your Islamic brothers in Iraq were tortured?

    Where was your self righteous anger when our government rounded up a bunch of your Brothers and threw them into Gitmo for several years without even charging them of a crime and yes torturing them.

    Or Where was your self righteous anger when your brothers were herded on to planes and shipped to countries that would allow torture?

    Oh and yes there has been plenty of evidence that there was torture going on at Gitmo but you like many others just chose to stick your head in the sand and say that it was a liberal conspiracy.

    So Ill say again,

    If you choose to play the Devil's game then you shouldnt be suprised when you have to play by his rules.
     
  15. Daisy

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    Where have you looked? I'm not being facetious, but if you only look at sites that agree with you then you'll only see what you want to see.
     
  16. Martin

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    ==I did not "demonize" you, I only used your own words to show how off beat your position is. Read Romans 13 and learn that government does have the right to take action against evil doers.

    ==Trying to change the subject? The topic is what happened to those two human beings, and not just them but the others as well (Iraqis, Russians,,,). I can't help but wonder why you don't want to focus on that but rather wish to change the subject.

    As for evils done by America...I don't know that anyone would deny that America has its problems (at home and abroad). That is not the issue here however. The issue here is human beings being beheaded (alive) on video tape.

    ==I have no "Islamic brothers" since we have different Fathers. When it can be shown that any human being has been tortured I am angery. That goes for Abu Grab (where I support strong punishment of the guilty parties) and for Gitmo (if any torture can be proven).



    ==They are not my brothers since we have a different Father. Those people in Gitmo are not innocent folks who took a wrong turn on a highway. Many of those people are terrorists. We should not try them in American courts, they should be tried before a military tribunal. Those who are found not guilty should be released, those who are found guilty should be left in prison there or sent to their home country for punishment.

    There is no evidence of torture at Gitmo (well, unless you believe everything someone tells you).


    ==Well? Is it more than hearsay? Or are you basing your "proof" on the testimony of terrorists?

    So Ill say again,
     
  17. LadyEagle

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    To equate a little humiliation at Abu Gharib with cutting out of hearts, dismembering, gouging out eyes, genital mutilation and beheading is ridiculous and absurd. They will do the same to you and yours if ever they get the opportunity. Just ask some of the poor folks in nations of Africa and elsewhere, where these types of dispicable deeds have been going on for decades, torturing and slaughtering millions of infidels for no cause other than their religion.
     
  18. Phillip

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    AMEN, LadyEagle!:thumbs:
     
  19. emeraldctyangel

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    When you play devils advocate, some people start seeing you that way too Jerome. Just an FYI.
     
  20. Martin

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    Russia Steps Up

    Just a FYI...Russia has stepped up to the plate to bring justice down on the people who killed it's citizens. President Putin has ordered "special services to hunt down the killers of four Russian hostages in Iraq". Of course they will be hunting down the same group that killed those two American soilders. At least Putin is doing something about this, Bush seems to have done nothing.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060628/ap_on_re_eu/russia_iraq
     

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