Are We Born With Sin natures, or receive One When We First Choose To Sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Sep 9, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Does the Lord view us as being in a state of "Innocence" until we actually commit our first sin?

    Are we all basically saved, as Fall did not personally affect us?

    Curious to how your view of just how stand at birth with God affects your Sotierology?
     
    #1 JesusFan, Sep 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2011
  2. freeatlast

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    Every passage in the bible dealing with the condition of man has no age limit on it. We are all sinners at conception separated from God. We do not cauase our lost condition, Adam did. We are dead in our sins not because of them.
     
  3. Jon-Marc

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    "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

    I think that verse is clear that we are all born with a sin nature and none are guiltless. Of course, babies and children are "safe" until they are capable of understanding, which usually happens at a very young age--evidenced by a two-year-old who will try to lie his way out of punishment after doing something he shouldn't.
     
  4. webdog

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    If they are not guiltless...how can they be safe?
     
  5. JesusFan

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    JUST as God in OT times "Forbade" sins commited until the time of Christ, but now all men are accountible to Him...

    Same way, God can 'forbade' and place into the "ark/mercy seat" of the Cross all those under age of accountibility for their sins to Him!
     
  6. Winman

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    It depends upon how you define "sin nature". If you are asking if all men are born flesh with lusts and desires that tempt a man to sin, the answer is yes.

    Jesus also came in the flesh and had lusts and desires and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

    So, I personally do not like the term sin nature, it is not found in scripture. I prefer the scriptural term, which is "flesh"

    If you are asking if men are born sinners, the answer is no. Sin is the transgression of the law. Babies and very small children do not understand between good and evil and therefore cannot commit sin.

    Many scriptures show little children are not held accountable for sin because they lack the maturity to discern between good and evil. A few verses are Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, and Jon 4:11.

    So, all men are born flesh with a propensity to sin, but no one is born a sinner, as a certain degree of knowledge and maturity is required before a person is held accountable for their sin.
     
  7. DHK

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    It has well been said, “We are not sinners because we sin, We sin because we are sinners.”
     
  8. webdog

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    ,
    Now apply that saying to actual sins to see how ridiculous of a saying it is, not to mention the built in excuse and lack of accountability.,,,,,,,,
     
  9. Winman

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    I've never seen that statement in the scriptures.

    To the contrary, Gen 3:6 shows that Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life before she ate the forbidden fruit, yet she was not judged a sinner until she actually took and ate the fruit.

    The scriptures say God will judge us for the things DONE in our bodies, not our nature. (2 Cor 5:10)
     
  10. DHK

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    Have you ever seen in Scripture:
    There is one God existing in three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each one co-eternal, co-existent and co-equal with each other. They are three persons and yet one God. This we know as the trinity.

    Do you believe it? I do. But the statements aren't found in Scripture. They don't have to be.
     
  11. DHK

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    Adam and Eve were created.
    We are not created. We are born into this world, not with God's nature, but with Adam's nature (Gen.5:3).
     
  12. webdog

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    Adam was created in Gods likeness, not with His nature. God's nature could not sin, yet we know Adam did.
     
  13. Winman

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    You are not getting it, Gen 3:6 shows Eve had sinful desires before she actually sinned.

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    We have a detailed description of Eve's temptation here. She had the lust of the flesh, she wanted the forbidden fruit because it was good for food, it would satisfy her fleshy appetite and hunger. It was pleasant to the eyes, it appealed to our fleshly desire for beauty. It was desired to make one wise, this is the pride of life, we all desire to be intelligent and wise and take great pride in this.

    Eve had these desires BEFORE she sinned.

    We are no different from Eve, we have this same nature.
     
  14. DHK

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    Scripture says she was tempted and gave into the temptation. Therefore sin was not imputed unto Eve but unto Adam. Adam was not tempted. Adam rebelled against directly against the command of God.

    Adam didn't need a sin nature to sin. Neither do we. That will be evident in the Millennial Kingdom when some without a sin nature will rebel against Christ.

    But as for now we sin because: we are sinners, and because we like to sin. Both are true.
    [quote[We have a detailed description of Eve's temptation here. She had the lust of the flesh, she wanted the forbidden fruit because it was good for food, it would satisfy her fleshy appetite and hunger. It was pleasant to the eyes, it appealed to our fleshly desire for beauty. It was desired to make one wise, this is the pride of life, we all desire to be intelligent and wise and take great pride in this.[/quote]
    So Satan said. He convinced her of all that. He convinced her that that which appealed to her senses was greater than God could ever offer her, and she gave into that. She believed Satan more than she believed the promises of God. Perhaps she was trusting her emotions.
    That is part of the image of God. Emotions are natural. We wouldn't be able to love one another without a certain amount of love.
    No we don't. We are under a curse. We were not created innocent. There is no such thing as innocence in this world. Each and every one of us is born with a sin nature. We are sinners at birth by nature, the children of wrath, as Paul states it.
     
  15. Winman

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    The issue is not whether we are born flesh with lusts and desires that tempt us to sin, that is a given.

    The issue is WHEN we become a sinner condemned by God.

    The scriptures clearly show Eve had fleshly lusts and desires before she sinned.

    But she was not judged a sinner and came under the condemnation of death until she she knowingly and willfully transgressed God's commandment. She clearly revealed she knew this commandment and the penalty before she took the fruit and ate it.

    So, having lusts and desires that tempt us do not condemn us before God, but only when we willingly and knowingly transgress God's law.
     
  16. Winman

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    There is not one word in the curse concerning man's moral nature and that he would henceforth have a new nature that desires and MUST sin. In fact, you cannot find this anywhere in the scriptures.

    Man was created in the likeness of God, but not God's nature as Webdog correctly said. God cannot be tempted, Adam and Eve could.

    The scriptures also show Eve had fleshly desires before she sinned. So, if you define fleshly desires as a sin nature, then Eve had a sin nature before she ate the forbidden fruit. It is undeniable.

    It is true that Satan introduced the temptation, but if Eve would have had God's nature it would have been of no effect. He simply aroused her fleshly desires that were before dormant. The fact she could be tempted at all proves she had what you call a sin nature, which I call flesh.
     
  17. freeatlast

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    No the Gen. account does not show what you say. It in fact shows the opposite. She had no desire until deceived. Not until she was deceived did she look with desire. You are trying to compare your fallen flesh with her created flesh and they are not the same.
     
  18. freeatlast

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    All that is incorrect. Eve was not created with a sin nature. You are again evaluating her with your fallen flesh. Read the Gen account against 1Tim 2:14 and see that she was deceived, tricked, confused, beguiled, but her actions were not because of anything that was inside of her dormant as you put it.
    What you are saying is like someone tricking a child into stealing for them and claiming the child did it because they had a sin nature. That would not be true. They were tricked, deceived into the action just like Eve was. She was tricked into believing her tempter but what she did was not because she had a sin nature by creation. She was tricked just like a child can be tricked to disobey a parent. So yes we are today born with a sin nature but God did not create it in the beginning with Adam and Eve.
    The only reason that anyone would want to hold top the idea that Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature is to be able to deny their responsibility for their sin by blaming God for being like they are.
     
    #18 freeatlast, Sep 9, 2011
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  19. Winman

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    Eve was naive to a degree, and who could blame her? She lived in a perfect world and had never heard a lie. She was like a small child who by nature is very trusting and believes what they are told.

    This does not negate that she had fleshly desires and this is exactly what Satan focused on. He told her she would be like God. This appeals to our pride. He told her the fruit would give her knowledge, a desire we all have.

    How do perverts talk little children into getting in their car so they can take them away and molest them? In most cases they appeal to a child's desires. They will offer them candy or a toy. They will ask the child to help find a puppy as children tend to like young puppies or cats.

    These desires are innate, they are natural, and this is what Satan appealed to.

    It was the same with Christ, Satan tempted him with bread because he knew Jesus was very hungry. This hunger did not originate with Satan, but with Christ's flesh. He then offered Jesus all the riches and power of the kingdoms of the world. This appeals to all of us, it is a natural desire of the flesh.

    You are trying to deny Eve had fleshly lusts when Gen 3:6 describes them. It is irrelevant that she was naive.
     
  20. Van

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    Genesis 3:6 does say Eve was fallen. It says she "saw" what the Serpent had deceived her into seeing.
     
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