Are we limiting God?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by mcgyver, Dec 24, 2004.

  1. mcgyver

    mcgyver
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    Before I start, I'd like to take a moment to wish all a very blessed and joyous Christmas, and may the peace of Christ guard us all!
    I don't post much, but I visit frequently and enjoy reading the thoughts and "different takes" on various issues from these learned people.

    I do however have a problem with the KJVo inerrancy/original manuscript only inerrancy issue.
    As I understand the scripture, is it not the Holy Spirit that leads us into truth, brings us to remembrance of what Christ taught, gives us understanding of His word, and convicts us as to sin and righteousness?
    If this is indeed the case, is not God well able to keep His word from generation to generation?
    If this is not the case, then I must ask the question: "What part of the Bible is inerrant, and what part is not?" (Are we teaching error? What part should we throw away?)
    It seems to me therefore, that if the entire Bible is not trustworthy, perhaps we should ascribe to the Mormon declaration ("We accept the KJV as the word of God INSOFAR AS IT IS CORRECTLY TRANSLATED" [emphasis mine]), and elect a "Living Prophet" to help us understand His word.... This is of course ridiculous but it illustrates my point.
    If God indeed desires that "none perish, but all come to repentance" does it not make sense that He would make His word understandable to people who do not speak 17th century English?
    What are your thoughts?
    In Christ, your brother John
     
  2. natters

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    God is able, and did, keep his word from generation to generation. The entire Bible is trustworthy, it is personal interpretations of it that can be in error.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    God has kept His Word perfect and complete. He gave it in Hebrew/Greek and we STILL HAVE IT! In every generation and every ethnic group we can translate it into our various languages and have the Word of God in our hands.

    God never promised and never has given His Word in anything other than the inspired Greek/Hebrew. To claim otherwise is to fall into the trap of something the Bible does not claim.

    Not one verse (our only source for knowing) supports "onlyism" - God would give His Word specially to one language at one time. So "we" limit God? No. He limited His own revelation.
     
  4. robycop3

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    God gave His OT word to various of his prophets over several long(to us) time periods, beginning in the 1700s-1800s BC(Job) to the 500s BC(Malachi). From the time He first gave it to someone such as Moses, it remained as Scripture.

    He then gave His NT word to His Apostles over a roughly-60-yr. period. He then caused people to sort out what He wanted to be preserved as Scripture. Some was no-brainer, such as the writings of the Apostles who actually walked with Christ and recorded Christ's words as He willed.

    I actually had someone tell me that ALL of Christ's words were recorded! I asked that gent, "How many words do you think YOU'VE spoken over the last 3.5 years? Most likely, the figure is in the tens of millions, at the rate of several thousand a day. If EVERY WORD Jesus spoke during His ministry was recorded, we'd have a "Great Bible" indeed; we'd need a forklift to carry it!

    I don't know if Moses wrote in Proto-Hebrew or Egyptian; I don't know if Jesus spoke only in Aramaic, or whether He also spoke in Greek or Latin. But I DO know that whatever language(s) His prophets used, He spoke to them in THIER languages, however He did it...by sound waves, telepathy, or whatever. And His penmen couldn't have written in any other language save one they understood.

    God gave His word to His penmen who obviously wrote on their own languages, and He caused others to translate those writings into various other languages as He chose. We must remember that no language is strange to God, as Me made them all and controls them all right now as He's done always since He gave man language. LANGUAGE IS NO BARRIER TO GOD!

    And no matter what Dr. Ruckman says, God directly gave His word in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, the languages used by His prophets whom He chose to write it down.

    God wants all mankind to read or hear His word in His good time. No, He didn't spread His word over all the world at once, but He now causes/allows man to translate his word into the many languages now in use. As of now, the Bible is translated into over 2400 tongues! Shoot, I didn't even know until a few years ago that there were that many tongues in use!

    Something the one-version-onlyists forget...that if a Bible version from every one of those languages was to be translated into English, we'd then have 2400 English versions! But I believe by faith that every language has God's word exactly as He's chosen for them to have it, and that the languages which have had His word for centuries now have it in the form of that language current for today. NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES GOD LIMIT HIMSELF TO ANY ONE VERSION IN ANY ONE LANGUAGE. That's an insurmountable barrier to the Onlyists.
     
  5. Amity

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    Hi robycop3.

    You said: IN SCRIPTURE DOES GOD LIMIT HIMSELF TO ANY ONE VERSION IN ANY ONE LANGUAGE.


    do you feel that God has preserved His word in english in any one version?

    In Christian love.
    Amity
     
  6. stevec

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    Here's an interesting little tidbit--in Islam any version of the Koran other than the Arabic must be called "A Translation of the Koran". It is forbidden to call it just "The Koran" if it's in another language.
     
  7. Slambo

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    Well according to the resident Dr.,God's word is to be found ONLY in the "original languages" (i.e Greek Hebrew).Now HOW can that be accepted as OK when he is confining God's word to to one or two languages???!!! But when someone claims superiority of the KJV they get lambasted for one version "ism"...

    Am I the only one here that sees the double standard here??
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I OFTEN claim superiority of the KJV but have NEVER been lambasted for one versionism.
     
  9. robycop3

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    Amity: Hi robycop3.

    You said: IN SCRIPTURE DOES GOD LIMIT HIMSELF TO ANY ONE VERSION IN ANY ONE LANGUAGE.


    This is a rhetorical question. RAALITY shows God has had His word translated into many versions in just about every language that'c contained His word for a long time.


    do you feel that God has preserved His word in english in any one version?

    God has preserved His word in English not only in one version, but in many versions. One-Versionism is a false doctrine no matter which single version is chosen. The ONLY legitimate excuse for ANY one-versionism is PERSONAL PREFERENCE. None of the others hold water.
     
  10. Amity

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    robycop3:
    "The ONLY legitimate excuse for ANY one-versionism is PERSONAL PREFERENCE"

    yes, I see my KJV use as a personal preference.
     
  11. robycop3

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    Slambo:Well according to the resident Dr.,God's word is to be found ONLY in the "original languages" (i.e Greek Hebrew).Now HOW can that be accepted as OK when he is confining God's word to to one or two languages???!!! But when someone claims superiority of the KJV they get lambasted for one version "ism"...

    God's word was written by His chosen penmen in the languages they knew. None of them wrote in English, French, German, etc. because they didn't then exist. But then, WHO made those languages of today?

    God caused/allowed His word to be translated into later languages as He chose. There's only a small percentage of the world's population sufficiently proficient in the old languages to be able to read the oldest known texts of both Testaments. But none of this is lost on GOD. He provides His word in the languages He's assigned us to use. he gave the Inglish of 400 years ago His word in THEIR language same as He now gives it to US in OUR language.

    Am I the only one here that sees the double standard here??

    Avtually the double standard is applying a given standard to one version and not to another, having a separate standard for it.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    You believe God gave His Word in OTHER languages, slambo? Hebrew, Greek (and a little Aramaic). That's it.

    If you want His Word, THAT is what He limited it to. Not me. I've been called "Dr God" by some but find that demeaning God and blasphemous.

    I have a number of English TRANSLATIONS of God's Word. Where they are accurate to the Greek/Hebrew, they derive inspiration. Where they are man's words without Greek/Hebrew base (God forbid) they are not inspired.
     
  13. Phillip

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    If God were to promise His Word to be 100% word-for-word accurate in English, then He would certainly probably want to do it in every language on the earth. In fact, one extremist KJVo, used to claim that this was true.

    Funny, that our missionary associations and printing companies are translating Bibles every day to new unreached people group dielects that have never before had the Bible.

    What makes you think that English people are so blessed to have the one perfect Bible, or do ALL of the languages?
     
  14. ktn4eg

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    BTW, Phillip, some of these newer languages never even had a WRITTEN form of them until quite recently when linguists (most often from various missionary groups, and definitely aided by more modern computer technology) discovered the relationship between their speech patterns and the best way in which to represent them in a written form. Of course, after all of that, there remained the task of TEACHING these people what those written symbols represented as well.

    This was the case with the vast majority of our own nation's native Americans as well until people (here again, it was usually missionary folks) helped some of them develop a written format of their language or dialect.

    Even today there are STILL some languages or dialects that remain to be "broken."

    While I'm not sure I necessarily agree with all the implications of this statement, I will have to admit there is at least a grain of truth in it:

    No person deserves to either hear or read the Gospel twice until every person has had an opportunity to hear or read it at least once.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    So which one is it? This is one of the most deceptive statements ever made about the word of God.
     
  16. Pastor J

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    I am not a Dr. Bob fan and I am an Only KJV individ. James, your statement makes no sense at all.

    God has given us his inspired Word in the original manuscripts. From there, we either have a copy or a translation. Where Dr. Bob and I differ, is that I believe God has preserved his word for English speaking people in the best translation available, the KJV. Dr. Bob only believes that preservation would pertain to the originals (greek and hebrew).
     
  17. HankD

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    How about the King James translators themselves?
    HankD
     
  18. James_Newman

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    The statement that we have God's word today in the original languages implies that we can read it and know it is God's word. Bob does not believe that. Bob believes we must sift the word of God out of multitudes of manuscripts with the pseudo-scientific sieve of textual criticism. You or I could not know that what we were reading was the word of God, even if we could read greek or hebrew fluently. It is a statement designed to instill confidence in a scholarly priesthood who knows better than us what God really said.
     
  19. HankD

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    And the radical KJVO who make all the rules which most of the KJVO clones follow (though most deny they follow him or her) would have the entire world learn 17th century Elizabethan-Jacobean English to have the Word of God out of a reasoning (The English corrects the Greek and Hebrew sources from which it was taken) that defies any and all logic in any language.

    HankD
     
  20. James_Newman

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    I won't deny that God preserving His word in the KJV defies man's logic. Can you explain the logic behind paring an army down to 300 men before going to war? Who makes the rule that says God has to be logical?
     

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