Are We Living in the Kingdom Age Today?

It must be divided. Context dictates that sometimes it is talking about a general rule of God right now, and that other times (normally) it is talking about a future culmination of human history when God in human form will reign literally from david's throne for a literal 1000 years.

Lacy

 

AMEN


In His service;
Jim

 

Doesn't Revelation, like a lot of other prophecy, have a whole bunch of weird symbols in it, things not so easily understood? Wouldn't that make taking parts of Revelation literaly (as opposed to, say, Acts or Matthew) a somewhat risky thing to do, especially to establish important doctrines?

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: "
21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. "

Why didn't Jesus or Paul come right out and plainly teach millenial exclusion? I agree this doctrine does an admirable job of putting all the puzzle pieces together, reconciling all the scriptures, but really, why should something this important be so obscure? Why isn't it taught plainly somewhere? Shouldn't we expect it to be?

--

BTW In reality I am very close to agreeing with you exclusionist guys, which would cause me no end of grief in my current context, let me tell you! It's the main reason I'm posting again.

 

The Kingdom God is Already but Not Yet. We already are in the kingdom of God but it has not yet reached its full consumation (from our point of view of course) Colossians 1:13

 

Timothy,
I can only offer you up a Bible study. prayerfully examine the following verses in light of millenial exclusion (Faith only/Believe/eternally secure salvation: ---Faith + works after salvation/kingdom inheritance) and see if it fits. (print it out.)

Jesus:

Matt 5:22-30
Matt 5:5-12
Matt 7: 21-23
Matt 8:12
Matt 10:28-39
Matt 12:31-32
matt 13:37-50
Matt 18:1-35
Matt 24:13
Matt 24:42-25:30
Mk 9:38-50(esp v41)
Mark 13:32-37
Luke 6:20-ch
Luke 9:22-27 (Compare to 1 Co. 9:24-27)
Luke 12:41-48, 59
Luke 13:24-30
Luke 14: 25-35
Luke 17:32
Luke 18:28-30
Luke 22:34-36
John 6:37-40
John 12:23-27
John 15:1-11

Paul:

Acts 14:22
Acts 20:24-32
Rom 1:18
Rom 2:3-11
Rom 8:12-19
rom 10:9
Rom 11:17-24
1 Cor 3:3, 9-18
1Cor 6:9-10
1Cor 9:24-10:12
Gal 5:19-21
Gal 6:7-9
Eph 5:5-7
Phil 2: 12-16
Phil 3:11-14
col 3:23-25
I Thess 5:23
II Tim 1: 18
II Tim 2: 10-13
II Tim 4:6-8
Hebrews 2:1-3
Heb 3:6-4:11
Heb 6:1-6, 12(Christian maturity)
Heb 10: 25-31
Heb 12

James:

James 1:12,21-25
James 2:5,13,24

Peter:

1 Pet 4:17-18
1 Pet 5: 3-6
2 Pet 1:5-11

John:

1 Jn 2:28
2 Jn 8

Jude: v5 (after he saved, he destroyed)

 

Wow Bro Lacy. I have never seen all the verses listed. Although when checking the references as given by Bro Joey in reading his book, it seemed like there were a bunch. I just never have seen them in such a list. I suppose you did not list them all? Correct?
In His service;
Jim

 

Thanks Lacy, I just took a look at all of those scriptures. I've believed that one can lose his salvation, based on many of these scriptures, but I admit millenial exclusion explains several of them better, and also takes into account and well explains all the scriptures the OSAS crowd likes too.

But I still wonder why Paul didn't say something like:

"Faith saves you in eternity - and rest assured this salvation you can NEVER lose. But in the coming Kingdom of God, a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth, you can only reign with the Lord if you maintain good works - and if not, rest assured you WILL be chastened"

Why does it have to be pieced togther, a little here, a little there, and never just flat out stated like above? Am I making myself clear? Millenial exclusion explains the these scriptures better than ANYTHING I've ever heard of, but why is not stated simply and unambigiously like above?

 

Yes. The saved believer is living in the (spiritual) Kingdom of God today. However there will be a literal/physical manifestion of the Kingdom of God to which is the millenial reign.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Dear Brother,

Here is a link to some free reading on the subject, by men who taught the doctrine of exclusion over the past 200 years.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline.htm

I especially recommend this book: The Judgment Seat Of Christ, by DM Panton

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/panton/judgmentseat.htm

Lacy

 

Be very careful. By your false doctrine that a christian can go to HELL, could be leading many unsaved people, who think they are saved, but are not, that they will have eternal life. This false doctrine you are teaching is VERY DANGEROUS, and I personally think it is mocking the sacrifice and power of the cross of Jesus Christ our Lord.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, the truth is that the lazy unmotivated Christians who think that they are saved because they have some good works are going to hell. If you believe that God looks the other way when we sin, as long as we do a good deed now and then to prove we still have Jesus in our heart, then you will go there too. Christ is not telling parables when He says the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. He said unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Do you apply this to eternal salvation?

Christ said believe on Him and be raised up on the last day. How do you get from being raised up on the last day by belief, to if you really believed you would be good and you'll be raised up 1000 years before any one else, and if you don't believe you get raised up on the last day to be cast into the lake of fire. Was Christ not aware of when the last day was? Did he not realize that there would be 1000 years of his kingdom after the last day, before he resurrectd the unbelievers to slay them?

 

THE ACCOUNTABILITY AWAKENING

“The native magnitude of this [kingdom-accountability] truth must speedily redeem it from all obscurity…This doctrine so potently contends against the selfishness and laxity of believers in this latter day, that no one who considers the matter can expect that its career will be otherwise than stormy…those who have the single eye will perceive its amplitude of evidence, and embrace it, in spite of the solemn awe of God which it produces, and the depth of our own personal responsibility which it discloses.” -Robert Govett (1813-1902)

“...a host of living expositors of Scripture [are embracing kingdom-accountability truth], a host which is increasing all the time.” -William P. Clark (1864-1953)

“We are glad to be counted amongst the rapidly growing number of writers who are doing pioneer work in teaching the Scriptural, searching message of a deeper Personal Responsibility…Forever suppressed these truths will not be - The Holy Ghost is pressing them even now upon believers everywhere.” -W.F. Roadhouse (1875-1951)

“[Christians are] slowly waking to the immense importance of responsibility truth. It is tragic how many evangelicals abhor responsibility truth.…What will such evangelicals feel when they discover the truth at the Judgment Seat of Christ?” -D.M. Panton (1870-1955)

The writers of the above quotes were premillennial fundamentalists who were strong defenders of eternal security. These men also preached that disobedient Christians (who do not repent before they die) will be briefly punished at the judgment seat and then excluded from Christ’s future one-thousand year kingdom. This book will document that multitudes of other fundamental Christian leaders throughout history embraced the same teaching. These men were glad to see the powerful, motivating fires of this accountability truth beginning to glow among the saints. Yet, these fires were later largely extinguished; the consequences have been devastating. This precious accountability truth must be restored!

Believers who lack the full truth concerning their promises and warnings are in constant danger of becoming spiritually anemic. The Bible teaches that Noah moved with fear when he heard the holy warning about the impending flood (Hebrews 11:7). Saints in this perilous age also need the Lord’s warnings to keep them running in holiness:

“The denial of these solemn truths paralyses and destroys some of the most powerful stimulants God has supplied…it empties of all horror the dread warnings to the backslider, and leaves him, if it does not put him, in a drugged sleep; and it drives privilege over the precipice of responsibility….” -D.M. Panton (1870-1955)

The Bible exhorts Christians to race for the prize of reigning with Jesus in His future kingdom:

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run…
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.

The context of this Bible passage is winning a crown at the judgment seat. What does it mean to be a “castaway” at the future judgment seat? Paul is certainly not worried about losing salvation in eternity. However, many advocates of the Biblical doctrine of eternal security do not interpret such warnings in their fullness. Paul is striving to have a place in the future kingdom of God. This millennial (i.e. 1000 year) kingdom is a prize for suffering against sin, the world and the Devil:

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also REIGN with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:5… that ye may be counted worthy of the KINGDOM of God, for which ye also suffer:

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the KINGDOM of God…

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the INHERITANCE: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not INHERIT the KINGDOM of God.

The above Scriptures reveal that the future millennial kingdom is a reward for faithfulness. All Christians will spend eternity with God. This is the inheritance that every child of God will enjoy. Yet, the millennial reign is a double portion. It is the inheritance that firstborn sons will receive (Deuteronomy 21:15-17, Romans 8:29, Hebrews 12:23). This privileged position is only granted to those who suffer with Christ against sin and the world (Romans 8:17, Acts 14:22, 2 Thessalonians 1:5, etc.).

Christians who will not seek the prize of the kingdom will be held accountable for their negligence. While their brethren are enjoying a double portion of glory, the disobedient Christians will receive for the wrong which they have done (Colossians 3:25). Unfortunately, many modern Christians increasingly disparage the whole idea of such accountability. They have been seduced by the blind world of humanism through the influence of agnostics, liberals and psychologists that continually drink from the cesspool of unbelief. Einstein once stated that he could not understand how there could possibly be a God who would reward or punish his subjects! John S. Spong (a liberal Episcopal Bishop) likewise presumptuously mocks the teaching that God the Father will judge His saints. To Spong, the Biblical doctrine of God keeping records in order to reward or punish on a future judgment day is similar to “Santa Claus.”

God is not influenced by such humanism. In true love, He will certainly reward and punish His children according to their deserts:

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth…

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This chapter is only an introduction to the accountability truth taught in the Bible. Many objections are answered in detail in future chapters. This truth runs deeper than many realize. Our rebellious emotions will clamor against it. To grow in understanding concerning this motivating truth, we must diligently thirst for everything that God has to teach us concerning it:

Proverbs 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
5 THEN shalt thou understand THE FEAR OF THE LORD…

Many will not understand the deep truth concerning the fear of the Lord because they do not desire to know it! Instead of diligently seeking the sobering accountability truths abundantly revealed in Scripture, many Christians actually flee them. In the 1920’s, William Powell Clark (Resident Magistrate) identified one reason for this increasing rebellion among God’s children:

“The real reason underlying the refusal of some dear children of God to accept belief in the punishment of unfruitful believers - not eternal, but during the Millennial reign of Christ - is an inadequate sense of the Justice of God. Acceptance of the belief in the temporary punishment of such Christians during the Millennial reign safeguards the eternal merits of Christ’s atonement on the cross, and at the same time, preserves the absolute Justice of God.”

Awake in the Dark

“As for the black time to be expected.…God grant we may be of the number of those that suffer, that...we may be raised and reign with Christ at his coming.” -William Twiss (1575-1649)

“God shake us up. When Revival comes we shall see this [kingdom-accountability] truth again!” -W. F. Roadhouse (1875-1951)

Many Christians throughout history expected a revival of accountability truth in the last days. The world is growing increasingly hostile toward Biblical Christianity. Earlier writers knew that these accountability truths would be beneficial in helping a remnant of God’s seeking people to face the temptations that will surely increase as the days grow darker (2 Timothy 3:13):

“...the millennial crown and the first resurrection are a REWARD - the reward of suffering for and with Christ; as I have just said, a special glory and special hope over and above the redemption hope and glory, designed to comfort and support believers under persecution: a need and use which I have little doubt the church will before long be called on collectively to experience….” -William Burgh (1800-1866)

“The throne for the overcomers! Is it possible? Are they to share the throne of the Son of God? We can see now why, as we pass through the closing days of the age, there must be such terrible conflict, and why the prince of darkness will challenge every child of God who wants to ‘overcome’.…What is in the balance, therefore, for every believer in the present warfare with Satan, which must intensify as the age closes, is the millennial crown and throne….” -Jessie Penn-Lewis (1861-1927)

“Only now is this royal [accountability] truth emerging, and general coming persecution is likely to prove its powerful forcing-bed, for believers will see the Coming Age more clearly when they have lost this.” -D.M. Panton (1870-1955)

“Now, I do believe, there never was a time that this doctrine (the connection between reigning and suffering) would bear less to be overlooked, or required more to be brought forward....” -Theodosia Powerscourt (1800-1836)

“...The expectation of a Millennium may then be the belief to which they will fly for refuge against the violence of the storm which assails them; and which will serve as an anchor, sure and steadfast to buoy upon and confirm their souls. Whatsoever tends to weaken their confidence in this belief so far weakens and impairs the passive resources of the Church in the days of the great apostasy when she will want every resource that she can command.” -Edward Greswell (1797-1869)

The truth concerning the future kingdom as a reward according to works will certainly revive in the tribulation period (Matthew 24:14). However, as we continue to see an increase in stage-setting and preliminary signs in these last days before the tribulation period, it is reasonable to expect that this kingdom-accountability truth will also begin to be revived before the rapture.

The renowned Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) also (though indirectly) predicted a revival of kingdom-accountability truth in latter times. Robert Govett (1813-1901) was one of the foremost defenders of this motivating, sobering truth in the days of Spurgeon. Govett stood boldly for the precious truth of eternal security; yet he refused to water-down the Biblical warnings to disobedient Christians. He publicly defended his views in books and periodical debates, causing quite a stir. In regard to Govett’s writings, C.H. Spurgeon predicted:

“We only express our heart when we say that we venerate and admire this author and preacher, whose works will be more appreciated by future generations than by this frivolous age.”

On another occasion, he predicted:

“The day will come when the idols of the hour will perish, and the writings of such a man as R. Govett will be prized as the much fine gold.”

Such a day has arrived! The accountability truths that Govett stood for (and so many other premillennial fundamentalists such as Pember, Panton, Craig, Tilney, Nee, etc.) are presently being revived in varying degrees throughout fundamentalist and conservative evangelical circles. The rotten fruit of rebellion (that fully manifested itself in the 1950’s and 60’s) has ironically triggered a refreshing counter-reaction among a remnant of God’s people! We desperately need to get back to the full teaching concerning the judgment seat of Christ.

The words of Ernest Baker are a fitting conclusion to this introductory chapter. Baker (b. 1869) is best known for his book, The Revivals of the Bible (1906). It is called the most comprehensive book ever written on the revivals in the Bible. Baker was a Baptist pastor in Cape Town, South Africa. He was the editor of The Midnight Cry and The South African Baptist. He writes:

“How does Revival come? It comes in many ways. But one way I want to especially emphasize: And that is, that it comes by Truth that is preached with freshness…whenever any new truth comes to light, or is recovered…it displaces no truth….What I want to get at is this: Is there any truth not yet grasped, but yet plainly taught in God’s Word, that, if fearlessly and plainly preached, would bring quickening to the children of God, and set them on fire with a new zeal? I believe there is….The truth awaiting to be taught, and which will set God’s people on fire, is that the Prize of our High Calling is a Share in the Millennial Reign with the Lord Jesus….This new light broke on me some three and a half years ago. I began to preach it with both lip and pen. But I found that many very good people and good workers were not prepared to hear…that [our Lord] would for a time exclude a believer from a share in the Millennial glory, was something that should never be said. The opposition I encountered made me go quietly for a time. But I have been digging and digging into the Word, and I now know where I am, and am praying that never again may I allow the testimony of the Word to be quenched in me. This truth is possessing and kindling me, and the conviction is growing that if this is fearlessly taught it will prove the truth that will stir believers out of their ease and smugness….Those who came out of Egypt with Moses came out by faith….‘But with many of them God was not well pleased’….God sware that they should not enter into His rest. They were excluded from Canaan…this is the danger facing the unfaithful believer; exclusion from God’s rest, God’s Canaan, the Millennial earth, the reign of 1,000 years.”

May the Holy Spirit grant the seeking reader greater understanding concerning the fear of the Lord (Proverbs 2:5) and the word of the kingdom (Matthew 13:19-20)!

JD Faust

 

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Michelle, the truth is that the lazy unmotivated Christians who think that they are saved because they have some good works are going to hell.
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No, the truth is that these people are probably not truly saved. THis is the point! Saved people have the Holy Spirit within them. He does not lead us to be lazy and unmotivated nor does he allow us to remain in such a state. If they were truly saved, they would be FOLLOWING their LORD.

Jesus said, by their FRUITS, you shall know them.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Christ is not telling parables when He says the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. He said unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Do you apply this to eternal salvation?
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How would my righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, or anyone elses for that matter? I will tell you. It is not MY RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe Jesus Christ when he said the kingdom of God is within you? If you do, then you are making the millenial kingdom, to which is the physical manifestation of the spiritual, which is meant for ISRAEL, above that of what the Lord has given to the church, which is FAR BETTER. If you do not believe that the kingdom of God is within you, then you have no understanding of what the kingdom of God is in the first place.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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“The native magnitude of this [kingdom-accountability] truth must speedily redeem it from all obscurity…This doctrine so potently contends against the selfishness and laxity of believers in this latter day, that no one who considers the matter can expect that its career will be otherwise than stormy…those who have the single eye will perceive its amplitude of evidence, and embrace it, in spite of the solemn awe of God which it produces, and the depth of our own personal responsibility which it discloses.” -Robert Govett (1813-1902)
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This belief, ultimately DENIES THE POWER OF THE CROSS. It is through CHRIST that I have FAITH, and through CHRIST I HAVE THE POWER to OVERCOME. You are confusing UNSAVED people, with those who are saved and trying to build a false doctrine around it, because you are refusing to see this. Jesus said we should know them by their fruits. If they (WE) are NOT producing the FRUITS, then they(WE) are not saved. We should not be coming up with a doctrine that compromises this truth in order to tickle the ears and ultimately lead many to think they are saved, when in fact they are NOT. To give one an impression that because they will have to suffer punishment in hell, that they then will be able to have eternal life, is outright heresy. This is no different than a works=salvation, even though you all are denying that it is. YOu are sadly confusing rewards for works with SIN that has already been paid for in FULL. There is no punishment there for it, for if there was, then there was no reason for Christ to come in the first place. There would be constant guilty feelings and our spirit would have NO PEACE.

Please read Phillipians 3 and 4.

love in Jesus CHrist our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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The context of this Bible passage is winning a crown at the judgment seat. What does it mean to be a “castaway” at the future judgment seat? Paul is certainly not worried about losing salvation in eternity. However, many advocates of the Biblical doctrine of eternal security do not interpret such warnings in their fullness. Paul is striving to have a place in the future kingdom of God. This millennial (i.e. 1000 year) kingdom is a prize for suffering against sin, the world and the Devil
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We recieve crowns for rewards correct? What then do we do with these crowns? Do we keep them? Or are they given to the Lord? Why are they given back to the Lord? Has it ever occured to you, that the rewards that we will recieve, are probably not postions of authority, or materialistic things, but that our rewards are not only the glorified bodies that we receive, but just maybe all the people we helped to lead to salvation in Jesus Christ, or helped a christian brother/sister in a time of need, to help them overcome, etc.? What about those things we have done that have not produced fruit? The Lord tells us that they are burnt up, yet we see we are still given white linen, fine and clean, because that is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. You need to come out of this false belief, that the millenial reign is meant for the church. It is not. It is meant specifically for the nation of ISRAEL, and because of God's promises to them. It is FOR HIS HOLY NAMES SAKE. The believer ALREADY HAS THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHIN THEM.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Matthew 13 is being fulfilled before our very eyes. The "tares" have infiltrated the kingdom of heaven.

The end of this infiltration:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

HankD

 

Michell said,"If they (WE) are NOT producing the FRUITS, then they(WE) are not saved. "

So are you advocating works to prove salvation? How is this different from works=salvation?
BTW we are NOT saying works = salvation.
Fruit = people. If you are in the Vine and are a fruit of that Vine then the fruit you produce will be the same. People. Not deeds.

Michelle said, "YOu are sadly confusing rewards for works with SIN that has already been paid for in FULL."

How are good works not sin but bads works are not sin? Can you show me any bad works that are not sin?

Do this and you may have the answer.

In His service;
Jim

 

Being an obedient son is an easy concept. If you do what the Bible says, you are obedient and will be rewarded. if you don't do what the Bible says (or do what the Bible says not to do) you too will be rewarded. How hard is that? it's the same thing as when Mom wanted me to clean my room.

There is one sin that will keep you from being saved, not believing that Christ payed your price with his blood. Period. Commit that sin and you WILL go to the Lake of Fire.

As for us who are saved, all sin and obedience committed has to do with degrees of reward, both positive and negative. You cannot find one verse that says that (negative) reward is limited to this life. In fact you expounded the verse in I Corinthians exactly correct. God can and (if necessary) will chasten us at the JSOC.

The problem we are having is that we want to pick our own switch. God knows our heart and knows which "switch" motivates us (Christians) to holiness. One of his very real motivators is the threat of missing the millenial inheritance.

You cannot show me one verse that says all Christians get the Kingdom. It is always conditional.

Again, If he can punish us in this life, then why not in the next. Show me scripture. How does any temporary punishment constitute a loss of salvation? We have been conditioned to believe hell = lost. Lake of fire = lost. That is King James Bible. (Just ask Dr.Bob.)

Lacy

KJV 1 John 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.