Are we to ask for forgivness for sins?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jarthur001, May 13, 2006.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    This was thrown at me yesterday. I thought I would post it to get your input.

    It was said to me...
    "God forgives if we confess our sins. We do not have to ASK him to forgive and no here does it say we must. Its a given"

    What do you think. Do we need to say the words..."forgive me Lord" ?

    Thanks...

    In Christ...James
     
  2. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Samauel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

    Matthew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

    These are the first two things that popped into my heart...

    First it is the attitude of the Heart God is looking for. Not the verbal acknowledgment.

    If there is no Godly Sorrow, no intent towards Repentance in the Heart... The words mean nothing...

    When you sin you are convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin...

    When I've messed up, it's quite like being in a prison...

    So, I am quite likely to agree quickly with the Holy Spirit about whatever sin I've commited so the Holy Spirit can stop playing the adversarial and prosecutorial role...

    Speaking the words can have a beneficial effect, though, as It helps cement your inward knowledge of being forgiven because He is faithful and just to forgive us if we ask... (He keeps His Word)

    But, if you sin, get convicted, agree with the Holy Spirit in your heart and then get hit by a train before you can verbally ask for forgiveness...

    I have no doubt you'd still be forgiven...

    SMM
     
  3. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    if we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive our sins

    what did the publican say


    however there is matthew 9:1-8

    he hadnt asked for forgiveness as far as I know

    [ May 13, 2006, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  4. gekko

    gekko
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    ok - say im a murderer.

    i confess im a murderer - is God going to forgive me?
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    If one does not ask forgiveness for sins, is one really repentant?

    A person can confess to stealing a candy bar, but if one does not have a remorse for stealing that candy, one, in all probability, will steal again.

    I believe we are to ask for forgiveness.
     
  6. mcneely

    mcneely
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2006
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't believe asking forgiveness here acts as a petition to God to actually TAKE that sin away. Christ did that on the cross, and subsequently when one accepts him. But when we sin, and it bears on our conscience and heart (as it should) we are out of harmony with the Lord. So we ask him forgiveness for that Sin, so, for one, he can help us abstain from that sin.


    ---Justin
     
  7. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,414
    Likes Received:
    71
    I think we are splitting hairs here. Confession isn't just saying the statement, "I am a murderer." It is the recognition that you are a murderer and that you share the same kind of disdain that God has for that sin. (Please don't split hairs about my quick definition--you get the gist of it.)

    For example:
    The Greek word "homologeo" literally means "say the same;" this word is the word translated as confess in 1 John 1:9.

    I think that God doesn't need a magical formula like "Please forgive me," but I think that any true confession will come from a heart that would have the same feeling, if not the words.
     
  8. TaterTot

    TaterTot
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I have always believed one must ask forgiveness for each sin committed, not in order to get to heaven just in case, but as part of the daily Christian life. I still think its good practice, but I do believe that Jesus died for all our sins - past, present, and future.
     
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you believe that Jesus Christ took the sins of all the people and died at the Cross 2000 years ago?

    1.Were you really born again by believing that your sins were forgiven at the Cross?

    2. Did Jesus leave some sins unforgiven at the Cross?

    3. Do you know the meaning of the truth that Jesus sacrificed Himself for the sins Once For ALL?

    4. What is the difference between CONFESSING SINS and ASKING GOD TO FORGIVE THE SINS?

    5. Were our future sins unforgiven yet?

    6. Were our future sins forgiven on the condition that we ask God for the forgiveness?

    7. What was the answer from God when you asked God to forgive your sins?

    8. Could you confess your sins without Repentance?

    9. What is the difference between God's Answer to your prayer when you were born again and God's Answer to your prayer to get the forgiveness from God after your salvation?

    10. Do you find no contradiction when you ASK God to forgive the sins while you still believe that those sins were forgiven?

    11. Does God forgive your sins without any Sacrifice?

    12. If God forgive your sins based on any sacrifice, is it other than the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?


    I hope you understand the Truth, while you try to answer the questions.


    There are many people especially among Roman Catholic or Pro-RC minded people who do not know the true meaning of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ as they continue to ASK God to forgive their sins every week without bringing the message of Redemption at the Cross, at the MASS every week.


    Is Christianity Believing what was done already or Asking God to do something for us yet?

    Have you ever prayed God until you get the clear, undoubtful Answer from Him? What was the Answer? Your Prayer is now enough! Now I am gonna forgive you! Was this Answer from God?

    Again, and Again, I want to ask you, Have you ever desperately and wholeheartedly prayed God to forgive your sins away until you get the clear and undoubtful Answer from Him?
    What was the answer?
     
  10. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,766
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good question.
    I mean many people say "all you have to do is ask for forgiveness and then you're forgiven and must not feel guilty anymore". This may work with "normal" sins. God forgive me for getting angry at my neighbor.
    But imagine you killed a person! Do you really think after saying "God forgive me, I killed a person, I'm sorry" you'd feel normal again and not feel bad anymore? I don't think so. I don't even know if I could get over this I mean how do you know that God has forgiven this sin? Wouldn't you think that this sin was too bad to be forgiven? On the other hand wouldn't it be even more concerning if you welt well after simply confessing that you've killed a person? :eek:
    I mean what is more biblical and faithful? Does it show faith when you simply confess having killed somebody and then ask for forgiveness and then feel totally well and do not have a bad conscience anymore because you believe that Jesus paid for this sin? If somebody come to you and told you that he has killed somebody but he has confessed it and asked God for forgiveness and now he feels really fine again, what would you think? :confused:

    @ Eliyahu

    What about this?

    Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


    I mean forgiveness also depends on repentance, right? If I simply confess and say: God, I stole a candy bar today.
    Then where is the repentance? A murderer can also simply confess his sin and say: Yeah, I did it.
    What's the worth of this? Isn't forgiveness depending on repentance? How can you repent by simply naming your sin? Then you can as well read them all from a list. God, today I did this and this and this and this....

    Sometimes when I sin I ask for forgiveness but I still feel bad and then I ask again but I think the reason for this is the fear that maybe I have not really repented or what if I have done this sin too many times now and God is fed up now. I think many christians simply have these thoughts, I think this is pretty "normal". It also depends on what sins you do. If it's a sin you're already "used to" then you won't feel that guilty anymore but imagine you did something you have never done before, imagine you stole something and you've never stolen before then I bet that your feeling of guilt will be totally different and I don't think that you'll simply confess it and then feel well again.
     
  11. gekko

    gekko
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    even king david asked forgiveness for those sins done in secret...
     
  12. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    NIV
    James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

    KJV
    Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Here I prefer the KJV because of the connotation that "fault" gives towards a weakness we can mutually help each other overcome in Faith.

    Just a thought, but could confession to God be:

    1. Agreeing with Him you did wrong, that you failed to measure up?

    2. That inherent in the above that you are asking for His help to avoid the same mistake in the future?

    Again, when dealing with our human Brothers and Sisters we'd have to verbalize or other wise communicate our faults...

    But, with God, who looks on the Heart, all that is strictly required is the Heart change which is where true Confession and Repentance exists anyway...

    SMM
     
  13. Daughter

    Daughter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2000
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    God requires us to be open with Him. If we are truly repentant, we won't try and hide or cover up the sin:

    "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Prov 28:13)

    It's more than verbal assent but doesn't necessarily exclude it.
     
  14. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely! [​IMG]
     
  15. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here the issue is not Confess or Hide or Cover up. The distinction between Confess and ASK forgiveness. There is no objection that we should Repent and Confess our sins. Now should we ask God to forgive the sins ignoring that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross already? Or should we vehemently deny that Jesus finished the Redemption work at the Cross?
     
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eliyahu,


    Jesus said in the Lord's prayer to pray give us THIS DAY our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass against us.

    Two things... first of all it seems Jesus said this attitude of prayer should be in us each day... and in the prayer we are asking God to forgive us... Secondly, we are only forgiven on condition, and that is- that we forgive those who have sinned against us.


    Do you think that entire prayer has been wiped out at the cross?


    Mk:11:26: But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


    Claudia
     
  17. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Confessing Sins and Asking the Forgiveness of Sins

    Hi DiscipleX and Gekko,

    I understand both of you raise the valid questions, whereby God wants us to clarify some on some points.

    1. Grievous sins and Habitual sins.

    We must understand that even the born-again believers can comit sins. However, the lifestyle of the born-again believers are very much different from that of the unconverted people or fake Christians.
    Let's read the epistle John:
    1 John 3:15
    Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

    This doesn't mean that anyone who hates another brother is surely unbeliever, but it means that the true believers can hardly commit such grievous sins.

    When we think about the grievous sins like Murder, in order to do that, we have to prepare quite a lot, and in that process, our hearts are beating severely! Let's say I am angry with some guy in the neighborhood and try to kill him. Then I have to buy a gun somewhere, and have to plan quite a lot. As soon as I start to think about it, Holy Spirit inside me convicts me very much and I can hardly stand or sit anywhere. Let's say we intend to commit some adultery, if we have such intention, Holy Spirit convicts us very quickly and our hearts are beating! Maybe some brave men may be able to win over Holy Spirit, which is hardly acceptable. If you are truly born-again, Holy Spirit works, convicts, teaches, admonish you every moment, and therefore we can hardly imagine that the born-again believers commit the grievous sins like murder and even the habitual murder.

    However, in seldom cases we know that the born-again believers can commit the grievous sins like Murder and Adultery etc.
    Let’s look at the case.

    King David committed the adultery and murder. He was convicted when Nathan came to him. The whole process was quite intentional. He asked God for the forgiveness. Even though his sins were forgiven, the scars were left. We notice his wives and concubines were raped, and 4 of his sons were killed.
    I don’t think this is the only case of the grievous sins by the true believers. Even the born-again believer in Corinthian church committed the adultery with his step-mother in 1 Cor 5. Sin is a horrible thing. The Robber at the Cross repented and got the salvation, but it didn’t help him come down from the Cross, but he had to die, even though he went to Paradise.

    Zachaeus case:
    Isn’t it interesting that Zachaeus confessed his faith right after He met Jesus, saying that he would give half of his goods to the poor, would repay anyone four times if he exploited any person? Could we see the change of life in his case? In this case don’t we notice his confession?
    There is a big change of life if anyone is truly born again.

    Born-Again believers often commit sins like getting angry, or sometimes sexual desires sweep away the minds of the believers. As long as we repent and confess such sins, Holy Spirit remind us that such sins were forgiven at the Cross, and thereby we obtain the forgiveness.


    2. Why did David ask for the forgiveness and Lord Taught Prayer, Disciples Prayer teach us to ask for the forgiveness ?

    Yes, at the time of King David, Jesus didn’t die yet! There was no reference that the sins were forgiven. That’s why there is a big difference between the salvation in OT times and that in NT times.
    Our generation has received the salvation Pre-Paid by Jesus Christ. Jesus paid for us quite in advance!

    The generation of OT times received the salvation On Credit that Jesus would pay for their sins in the future. They believed it when they obeyed the animal sacrifice which was the shadow of Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice at the Cross. Actually Jesus Christ was the Malach (Special Envoy) in charge of Redemption of sins and therefore Jacob confessed
    “The Angel (Malach), my Redeemer” ( Gen 48:16) which angel can be a Redeemer?
    Which angel can shed Blood? Isn’t it interesting that the same Malach declares
    ” I am God “ Genesis 31:13? Do you know that Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ worked during OT times?

    Which angel can declare “ I am God at the House of God” ?
    Therefore, no one could think about the forgiveness of sins without Jesus Christ even at the time of OT Read 1 Pet 1:11-12.

    The generation at the time of Jesus Christ received the salvation by Believing at Sight like Cash on Delivery!

    However, in all cases throughout generation, the common point is that Jesus Christ is the Lord of Salvation and Redemption and the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ at the Cross is the Center and the Core of the Eternity from Eternity thru Eternity!

    What about the prayer taught by Jesus in Matt 6:9-13( Lord taught Prayer) and Luke 11:2-4 (Disciples Prayer) which teach us to ASK God to forgive the sins?

    As I said, they were taught before the Crucifixion and I don’t mean that they were abolished. In those prayers Jesus didn’t reveal the mystery which was to be revealed at the time of Crucifixion and Resurrection, therefore Jesus never mentioned about the Crucifixion in those prayers. The prayers don’t mean that we should still ask God to send His Son and let Him be killed for us again.

    In broader sense, eventually we get the forgiveness of our sins even after our salvation, but such forgiveness is given to us by the revelation that the newly discovered or experienced sins were included in the forgiveness which was done at the Cross and revealed to us at the time of Salvation. No one can ever imagine any forgiveness which is different from and other than that of Crucifixion at the Cross. And that was done already, not recently! Some people argue that I am abolishing the Lord Taught Prayer! After the crucifixion, asking forgiveness in the Lord taught Prayer has become asking the revelation of the forgiveness which was done already at the Cross by Holy Spirit,
    or asking the Faith to believe what was done at the Cross.
    Do you accept this?

    3. Throughout the NT, do we find anywhere after the Cross, that we should pray for the forgiveness, another forgiveness which was done at the Cross already? Nope!

    Let’s see several spots.
    John 20:23
    Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them

    Here the tenses are important:
    Alexandrinus has the perfect tense, while majority have present tense. None of them has future tense. In other words, all the forgiveness is based on the Cross.

    Acts 3:19
    I believe it should be better translated on this part.
    Repent ye therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out.

    The tense for blotted out is aorist infinitive, which means: One Time Occurrence in the Past! When did it happen? At the Cross. All the sins were BLOTTED OUT. Do you believe this?

    Therefore correct translation is this

    Repent ye therefore, and return to the fact that your sins were blotted out ( at the Cross already!)

    Acts 8: 22 to Simon ( who tried to buy Holy Spirit by money)

    Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
    Maybe this Simon never accepted the Salvation and the Forgiveness truly before that time, and therefore He had the need to get the Salvation.

    Does this mean that God didn’t forgive such sins at the Cross and newly forgive them after looking at the prayer?
    This sentence exactly coincides with 1 John 1:9

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    It is quite remarkable to notice αφη( apeh) for forgive is aorist subjunctive means Past subjunctive.

    Elsewhere than these verses I find no verse where we can think about ASKING GOD to forgive the sins without believing that those sins were already forgiven at the Cross .

    If we ask the forgiveness, then it should be " to reveal that all the sins were forgiven already including this newly experienced sin, at the Cross"


    4. Can anyone pray God to forgive the sins vehemently and strongly, in the same moment while the person believe that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross, and while such person praise and thank God that He has forgiven all the sins thru Jesus Christ at the Cross?
    In the same moment while we praise and strongly believe that all the sins were forgiven when Jesus Christ cried “ IT IS FINISHED”, can we ASK God vehemently “ please forgive our sins!” ?
    Do we not find the contradiction?
    Doesn’t our own request for the forgiveness betray our faith that Jesus Christ has completed all the mission at the Cross?

    5. What is the meaning of the truth that Jesus Christ is our High Priest? Does He still bleed there ? Does He carry the Cross there in Heaven?

    Heb 7:27
    Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

    But some people on this Board sounds like, Jesus need to bleed and die every day!

    Does He bleed and die newly again? Nope! If so, it may prove the Crucifixion was insufficient, which is untrue!

    What does He do as the Great High Priest in the Heaven?

    He send us the Holy Spirit and remind us of what He did at the Cross. Any forgiveness rendered to us is revealed us by Holy Spirit. We don’t get any new forgiveness but the forgiveness which was given already, but not believed because of our weak faith or poor faith.


    6. Have you ever prayed and asked God to forgive your sins until you get the Answer from God? What was His answer ?

    Did He never answer your prayer request? Have you ever prayed desperately and wholeheartedly to God for the forgiveness of the sins until He answered you?

    What was the answer? Have you never gotten the answer yet? Then there is a problem with your faith !
    What did God say to you when you prayed Him for the forgiveness?

    Now your prayer has eventually reached my throne! And therefore I’m gonna forgive you! You did a good job in praying and asking the forgiveness vehemently! Was this the Answer from God?

    Tell me your own testimony of salvation and the forgiveness of sins after Salvation!


    7.
    Was the forgiveness of sins by the Redemption at the Cross Conditional so that it can be given on the condition that we ask God enough?

    Can we not believe that our sins were forgiven already at the Cross?

    Were our past sins only forgiven at the Cross and the future sins were left unforgiven until we ASK and finally get the answer from God?

    Was our Past not the future at the time of Cross when Jesus cried " It is finished"? If so, how come God forgive us our sins even before we commit the past sins of ours?

    Have we got the salvation by believing that our sins were forgiven already at the Cross? Is this faith wrong?

    We should and must repent for our sins, and confess our sins to God. Then while we confess our sins to God, is it wrong if we still believe that our sins were forgiven at the Cross?

    In that moment should we forget about our faith that all sins were already forgiven?


    I hope everyone may have some understanding about what I am saying, and learn to distinguish between CONFESSING SINS AND ASKING FORGIVENESS.
    In the broader sense, we pursue the forgiveness of sins, but not departing from the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I would never forget about Jesus Christ and what He has done for me at the Cross in any moment, even when I committed the sins and have to confess my sins.


    Am I wrong?
     
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Claudia,

    Hope you find the answer from my post above.
    Eventually we pursue the forgiveness of our sins. But it is not apart from Cross which was complete already. Therefore any repeated prayer like the ones at the Catholic Mass without bringing in the Forgiveness at the Cross which was done already is wrong!
     
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    I dont know, Im just not seeing anything Catholic about asking forgiveness of sins more than once.
     
  20. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,766
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does this mean that if you've sinned and asked God for forgiveness and still feel guilty that something is going wrong? Is it faithful and christian to only ask once and then to feel good again as if nothing had happened? Would this be better?
    Are these things even important for salvation? Does a christian who doesn't understand all these things and who thinks he has to pray to be forgiven go to hell? I cannot imagine this.
    If all sins are already forgiven then what happens if a christian sins and does neither repent not do anything else? What will God do then? Will this have consequences?
     

Share This Page

Loading...