Are You A Calvinist?

All the brother's questions were answered. Did you see those?

 

Amen! I held to the "Arminian" position for years. Finally, after having the weight of scripture pressed down upon me, I bowed my head and prayed "Lord if this is true, convince me". I spent a huge number of hours, searching the scriptures with an open mind, and simply was unable to refute it.

I had never read the "Institutes", nor even much real theological material on Calvinism> in fact, the only books I had read at the time concerning it, was ANTI calvinist books.

I developed my Calvinism, completely from scripture. It just happens to line up with what I later read from theology books.

 

As you said, the doctrines of grace are hard to refute, if you let Scripture speak for itself.

 

This is absolutely not true. I believe both--that salvation is God's choice and man's choice. How does that work? I don't know. And I believe it is fruitless intellectualism to try to explain and reconcile these two. So I see no need to try to do it. As a mentor of mine said, "I am glad to let God keep some secrets."

And once again, I highly resent you and Pastor Larry saying that one does not believe the Bible if he does not believe Calvinism. That's ridiculous and I'm amazed that Pastor Larry is allowed to be a Moderator with such a prejudiced view. Are you paying attention Pastor Larry?

If you want to represent Calvinism in a gracious way with a Biblical attitude, and thus actually draw people to your teaching instead of driving them away as you and Pastor Larry are doing on this thread, I suggest you back off with the accusations that others don't believe the Bible, and try, "Well, brother, I believe your interpretation, your exegesis is wrong, but I'm glad you believe the Bible."

Honey draws more bees than vinegar. I'm glad I've known gracious Calvinists, or I'd think they were all pushy and insulting. (And I actually like you, Dale c, except when you're on your Calvinist high horse!)

 

That's the exact thing that refutes it

 

I do not know where you guys learned Calvinism from, but this is exactly what it teaches. Nowhere in Calvin's writings, is human responsibility denied. I have audio lectures from most of the major reformed seminaries in the country on Calvinism, and all of them without fail, teach compatiblism> which is what you just expressed.

The difference in Calvinism and Arminianism, is not that one affirms it is man's choice, and the other affirms it is Gods. The difference is that Arminianism denies that God's will is done (God chooses everyone> then it is solely up to us to choose; we can thwart God's will), while Calvinism asserts that we choose, but that our choices ultimately line up with God's sovereign will (He chose, not just us).

 

Amen!I just love it!!!:laugh:

 

Since our choices naturally include sin, are you trying to say that our sin "lines up" with God's sovereign will, i.e., He chose for us to sin?

 

Webdog, I'm aware of the tensions regarding the points of Calvinism in Scripture, but the doctrines of grace are there.

 

Let me ask you a question: is the all powerful creator of the universe unable/incapable to order our circumstances in such a way that we do not commit that sin?

Was God simply not powerful enough to make free willed beings, with moral fortitude? Obviously the inability to choose evil does not mean one does not have free will> or else God would not have free will, and you would be asserting at least in one way, we are greater than God. So why did God not make us free willed, in the way that He is, unable to do evil? Was He incapable?

 

I agree that we should not suggest that those who differ from us on matters of soteriology are not bible-believers. We may say that they do not understand the Bible correctly and try to show it by Scripture and sound reason to those who are interested in learning. But we ought not to suggest that our brethren with whom we differ do not believe the Scriptures. They do. But they understand them and interpret them differently. This is especially true on the doctrine of salvation. Consider the following statement from the 1689 Baptist Confession:

The doctrine of salvation is so plain in Scripture that it does not take a theologian to discover it. This is not to deny the necessity of the Holy Spirit in the matter, but it is to deny the necessity of learned theologians to understand the doctrine of salvation. Calvinism deals with how God saves a man. I do not have to understand how electricity works to turn a light on and enjoy its benefits. Nor does man need to understand the intricacies of his salvation in order to be saved.

Nor does one's particular understanding of God's work in their salvation mean that they do not believe their Bibles. What! Before the Lord illumined your understanding in the doctrines of grace did you not believe your Bibles?

Brethren, this type of rhetoric is not helpful.

RB

 

This was me and I spent 7 years studying it, researching, praying about it and comparing it scripture. I, unlike you, didn't even have anti-Calvinist books nor ever read them. But after earnest prayer and searching, it was God who lead me away from that theological view of His Word.

When I allowed scripture to speak and set it down beside that which men said it was saying, I had to hold to either one or the other. I stayed with scripture. Some of the views of the Sovereign grace doctrines were true and spot on, but some were not.

But I can say without equivocation that God was the one who lead me from it. It is God who teaches His children and He has lead His children to hold both views throughout the history of the Church.

 

Here we will have to disagree. My study of the Scriptures is why I left calvinism. I was brought up in a calvinistic home and church, (Presbyterian) then while in seminary( Presbyterian and calvinistic),I began to question it and couldn't make it agree with the scriptures. Many great scholars have and many haven't and I wouldn't question the salvation of either side.

 

Yes, and I stand by my statement. I don't stand by someone else's. Go back and look at what I said. My statement and the one you responded to above are two different statements I think. In fact, instead of you going back, I will quote it for you here:

I think that was a very gracious statement. But let's face it. Look at 2 Thess 2:13: God chose you for salvation from the beginning. If you really believe that statement in its context, you have to be a Calvinist. If you are not a Calvinist, you are forced to make that statement say something it doesn't say. And I could give many other similar examples.

BTW, I think the same thing about Presbyterians, Covenantalists, and a lot of other people. It has to do with truth.

I think we ought to discuss ideas, and kick them back and forth, and beat them up, and not get personal about it. I have not been personal in the least. But let's face it, John. You and I disagree on a very major point, and that means one of us or possibly both of us do not believe the Bible at some point. It may be because our exegesis is mistaken. I don't think it is intentional unbelief. But it is unbelief nonetheless. And I, for my part, don't see what's wrong with that. If you, as an arminian, say I don't believe the Bible at some point, I will not get offended at it. I think you are wrong, and I think I can demonstrate it from Scripture. But I do not "highly resent" it (as you do) because I recognize that it is about ideas, not about people.

I appreciate you and your ministry and your commitment to the gospel. But I think at some points you don't believe what the Bible says.

 

...or if you are a calvinist, you can post only the portion of Scripture you like. I mean, if we are going to talk about context, let's at least quote Scripture accurately!

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You were not chosen for salvation apart from the work of the Spirit AND faith in the Truth (Christ)

 

I quoted it accurately, and referred to the context to avoid taking up bandwidth.

Yes indeed. Not sure what part you think I don't agree with. Salvation, to which we were chosen, comes through the setting apart by the Spirit and belief in the truth (the gospel according to the next verse, technically not "Christ" since we are talking about context). Salvation does not come apart from that. So as the verse makes plain, God chooses us for salvation, and brings that salvation by the setting apart by the Spirit and belief in the gospel.

That, my friends, is Calvinism in a nutshell.

 

Help me understand this Pastor Larry. In your opinion, does God choose that we ALL be saved, or just a select few?

AJ

 

Here is the subtleness calvinism uses. The passage is not giving an order of God choosing for salvation and then "brings that salvation...". The entire act of God choosing those for salvation is dependant on the sanctificatio of the Spirit and faith in the truth. From the beginning, God chose those for salvation based on the work of the Spirit and faith in Christ.

 

If he chose all, wouldn't all be saved? Of course. God chooses his elect.

 

But at least admit that's not what the verse says.

The verse says nothing about "based on." It says "God chose you for salvation" and then tells us how that salvation comes. This is the unanimous testimony of Scripture.

Your comments are indicative of arriving at a position, and then saying whatever necessary to show that the Bible doesn't say the opposite. Your position is not based on the verse. You have "exegeted" the verse in light of the conclusion that you must arrive at. You can't arrive at any other conclusion, so you must explain away the part of the verse that contradicts your position. And that continues to be the problem I have with the explanation you give. It simply isn't what the verse says.