Are You Saving Yourself?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    The following is an interesting verse. What is your take on it? 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Was the Apostle preaching salvation by works? Was he alluding to the fact that man's will and subsequent choices and actions are indeed involved in his salvation?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    Paul never preached a works based salvation! That is not an option.

    I would say that continuing in correct doctrine is a sign of a true conversion. And that only through correct doctrine can a person be saved.
     
  3. steaver

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    A good probable answer.

    Also, Paul begins this subject in verse 1......1Ti 4:1¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    So it could be we should take heed unto the doctrine of God and you will not be giving heed to "doctrines of devils". This seems to be the contextual meaning of "save thyself". The hearers also will be saved from "giving heed to seducing spirits". (King James Bible Commentary)

    Either way, we are saved by grace through faith and this not of yourself (Ehp 2)

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  4. TCGreek

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    Amy, you have spoken for me on this one. :thumbs:
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Would you be so kind as to tell us the correct doctrine one needs to believe in to be saved?
     
  6. TCGreek

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    I believe in the context of the current discussion Amy was pointing to the obvious: a person is saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    But Amy can answer for herself.
     
  7. Amy.G

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    :thumbs: You know me too well!

    Correct doctrine is what Paul preached.


    Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
     
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Amy, you're giving me too much credit. :laugh:

    But I'm glad I got it.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: According to Christ Himself Amy missed it there if that is what she believes. Christ started His ministry by making repentance from sin a condition of salvation. "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Scripture plainly states that “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

    The apostle James cleared up this issue as well. He called faith without works as dead faith, and dead faith is paramount to no faith. Do you think that faith alone can save you? It will not according to the Scriptures if it is not coupled with the formation of intents in agreement with that faith. "Show me thy faith without thy works, but I will show you my faith by my works, for faith without works is dead being alone."
     
  10. TCGreek

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    Your use of Scripture continues to amaze me.

    It seems like you're content in putting Scripture against Scripture. I'm not in that practice, my brother.

    I like to take Scripture in their proper context, while keeping the whole of the biblical context before me.


    With the above post in mind, I cannot, simply cannot, put James against Paul.

    James, my brother, complements Paul.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    TCGreek, may I simply borrow your argument as my own and point it back to you? Let your words be seen as my words for a moment. What really, in such a case, do either of us have to offer in the way of evidence to substantiate our positions? Here is what you said that I am saying back to you.
    “Your use of Scripture continues to amaze me.

    It seems like you're content in putting Scripture against Scripture. I'm not in that practice, my brother.

    I like to take Scripture in their proper context, while keeping the whole of the biblical context before me.


    I cannot, simply cannot, put James against Paul.

    James, my brother, complements Paul.”


    My sentiments exactly TCG. :thumbs:
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Notice the two parts of this verse. “Take heed unto thyself” is the first part. What did the apostle have in mind with this comment? Whatever it is that we are to take heed unto has the distinct ability to both save us as well as those that hear us. What is he alluding to?
     
  13. Beth

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    Interesting this should come up

    I just listened last week to a sermon in which the pastor drew a parallel of this Scripture to one in Ezekiel.

    Ezekiel 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
    3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
    4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
    5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
    6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.
    7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
    8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    He tied all of this in to Paul's admonition to the leaders of Ephesus to protect the flock from wolves.

    Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
    26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
    27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

    This teacher/pastor's take on this was that a pastor/elder must be vigilant in teaching right doctrine and protecting against wrong doctrine.

    I's still whittling on this interpretation, myself, but wanted to mention this in light of this thread's discussion.

    The fellow who preached this pastored in Concord, NH up to last year, and presently is the president of Maranatha Baptist College.
     
  14. trustitl

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    Paul was telling Timothy to stand up the common false teaching of "saving oneself". Paul makes it clear what he believes in verse 10: "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

    The doctrine of salvation has been warped by abuse of the law since the gospel was first preached. Paul is teaching Timothy this truth. He was already facing these heretics. He tells Timothy to hold onto faith "From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

    It is this faith that can save and what needs to be held onto. It is the only means of salvation for Timothy and those that hear it.

    I Tim. 6:20 "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

    IITim. 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I cannot follow you at all on this one. He admonishes him to take heed ‘to thyself.’ How in the world can that be taken literally or otherwise to be saying, ‘do not take heed to a false doctrine that teaches one that you can save yourself??’

    This is a positive command of introspection not a warning of some false doctrine floating around out there.
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Thanks Beth for the post. I would simply say that if the pastor did not faithfully warn the congregation of self introspection and the dangers to their own standing before God, he failed in relating this passage to the listener as Paul related it to Timothy.
     
  17. trustitl

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    Well, its not the first time someone had no clue what I was trying to say. Did you have the same blank stare on your flace my wife
    usually does? :sleeping_2:

    What I was trying to say was that a major theme of this letter is Paul teaching Timothy how to deal with false teachers. At the beginning of the letter he points out the improper use of the law. In chapter 1 he points out how the law was being misused.

    Chapter 4 addresses some of the false teachings: "some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." These seem to be a strange mix of Jewish law and tradition.

    "Again, he tells Timothy "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine"

    I think the "take heed to thyself and to thy doctrine" is Paul telling Timothy to keep the gospel unadulturated from those teaching to keep the law or other false teachings. I agree with you that it is a "a positive command of introspection".


    He finishes with one last reminder:
    "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Thank you TrustitL for the clarification.:thumbs: I can follow that post just fine.

    Indeed doctrine is being addressed in this chapter. I feel that one of the most important thing about doctrine is the lifestyle it genders. Doctrine will effect lifestyle, one way or another. In that vein of thought, 'giving heed to ourselves' would indeed involve a careful introspection of not only our conscience, but our belief system and the doctrines held. Again, the way one believes (guided by the doctrine one holds) will effect the way one acts.

     
  19. BobRyan

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    It is the death of OSAS -- and it rings the bell loud and clear for "perseverance".
     
  20. BobRyan

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    God said --

    1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Paul is urging Timothy take pains and be absorbed in this business of paying attention himself AND to his teaching -- to CONTINUE to hold to what he has -- to continue in it -- to persevere. Becuase IN SO DOING he WILL save...

    Or as the NASB puts it "you will ENSURE salvation" for both yourself and those that hear you.

    Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
    14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

    Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them , so that your progress will be evident to all.

    16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

    That would be "since you are saved Timothy you will not be able to do anthing BUT continue in these things -- since that is what saved people always do -- so pay no attention to this matter it takes care of itself".
     

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