Arguements for "Soul Sleep"?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by AAA, Nov 8, 2007.

  1. AAA

    AAA
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    Are threr any SDAs that are on here that wll be willing to try to explain the doctrine of "Soul Sleep" with bible verses?
     
    #1 AAA, Nov 8, 2007
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  2. BobRyan

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    I can hardly wait to see if any of them show up for this!:jesus:

    I wonder if they will have any Bible texts!:godisgood:
     
  3. BobRyan

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    While we wait --

    Soul can die

    Matt 10:28 “both body AND soul” destroyed in fiery hell

    Ezek 18:4 “The SOUL that sins shall die”

    Ps 22:29 NASB” All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
    All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
    Even he who
    cannot keep his soul alive.



    You have to admit - if you accept that the "PERSON" is the one that "Falls asleep"[/b] and the [b]"body parts" are that which decays, rots and "returns to dust" as the NT says - you never run into the =problem" of praying TO the dead.

    Furthermore it is clear as to WHY we would not be allowed to communicate with the dead - in that case. It leaves only ONE group of spirits to "answer us".


    Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).


    1Thess 4:
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (persons) are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.


    This text is not about “body parts turned to dust” but about PERSONS WHO are grieving about other persons WHO are asleep in death.

    Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who (persons) are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".




    1Thess 4:
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>


    John 11:
    11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
    12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord,
    if he has fallen asleep,[/b] he will recover.''
    13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of
    literal sleep.
    14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


    Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”

    1Cor 15:
    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
    17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
    18 Then
    those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
    20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of
    those who are asleep.

    48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
    49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b
    ]WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,

    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and
    the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
    53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable,
    and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and
    this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.


    1 Cor 11
    27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
    28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
    29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
    30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick,
    and a number sleep.[/b]

     
  4. BobRyan

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    Man is Mortal

    Ps 143
    3Do not trust in princes,
    In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
    4His
    spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
    In that very day
    his thoughts perish.


    1 Cor 15
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,[/b]
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and
    the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
    53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable,
    and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and
    this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

     
  5. BobRyan

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    John 11
    1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
    2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair,whose
    brother Lazarus was sick.
    3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold,
    he whom You love is sick.''

    11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''[/b]
    12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
    13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was
    speaking of literal sleep.
    14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""
    Lazarus is dead,[/b]
     
  6. BobRyan

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    1Thess 4:
    Again – here is 1Thess 4 as it would be written if the PERSON is the one sleeping in death instead of the Person becoming “Alive in Christ” at death.

    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will
    bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have
    fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>



    Again – lets “rewrite” this so that the person does not sleep –
    only their decaying flesh is “sleeping” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast.
    Mythical Translation --
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are Alive in Christ in heave while their corpses are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring
    with Him those whose are alive in Christ and yet have corpses that have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who have
    bodies that are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who are in heaven alive in Christ and yet have decayed corpses that have fallen asleep on earth. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and [b]the dead corpses in Christ will rise first.[/b]>>
     
  7. BobRyan

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    How would 1 Cor 15 be written IF it was the Person that sleeps in death instead of the Person being “Alive in Christ” at death? – First the real version


    Now let’s Rewrite this to see how it would be written to show that only the bodies are “asleep” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast.



    WOW! What a rewrite!

    The “really fascinating” part of this is that 1Cor 15 DOES have a segment that IS just focused on the BODY of the saints. So Finally we have a text that does NOT need to be rewritten so
    that it applies Only to the body – the decaying corpse of the Person. Here it is…



     
  8. BobRyan

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    So why does the Bible call the state of death - sleep?

    Activity that stops in death –

    Texts that are not debated to be apocalyptic symbols nor are they debated as being parables.

    Don't simply settle for what "might" be extended to show something about being dead - show also the explicit texts that have as their primary purpose: showing what thought and what activity occurs for a dead person.

    Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

    Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death


    Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

    Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.



    Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God

    Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

    Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity



    Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

    Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you (the person) while dead.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________
     
  9. Eliyahu

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    AAA,

    This is a problem, BTW. Because it sounds like coming from the Predestination theory.

    God
    Redeems
    All
    Chosen
    Elected


    Jesus is a propitiation for the whole world, not only the Believers. ( 1 John 2:2)

    God so loved the World that He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ( Jn 3:16)

    1 John 4:14 as well. - Savior of the World. ( not the Elect, nor the Selected)


    Do you believe that God predestined the billions of people not to believe so that they may go to the Hell, before the eternity past, even though He could save them all if He had wanted to? Then does God ask the Unbelievers whom He already predestined not to believe in Jesus and thereby to send to the Hell, to repent and believe in Jesus? Where is the Love of God there?


    As for the Soul Sleep, is it OK if I say the souls are resting according to Re 6:11- and 16:11-?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    IF the soul is at rest -- waiting in a non-conscious state for the resurrection then as we see in Matt 22 where Christ said "God is NOT the God of the Dead" the reason he says that so confidently is that the dead do not praise God.

    As Paul states in 2Cor 5 -- that middle state of death is the undesired state that we in THIS life groan - longing to avoid.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. AAA

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    I may not respond to every post that someone has posted in my threads, but I do try to read them all that apply to my subject and I have read all that you have posted in this thread.

    I was raised in a SBC and I have always been taught "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". As you may know they (sbc) take this to mean: Whenever a christian dies they do NOT go to an unconscious state , rather they go immediately into the presense of the Lord and begin to praise GOD because now they are walking on the streets of gold.

    All of your post in this thread is built upon the Word of God and the teaching of the Bible seems to teach soul sleep, and NOT as the SBC teaches; however I need more time in prayer and bible study before I am willing to say: "the bible teaches soul sleep"........
     
    #11 AAA, Nov 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  12. BobRyan

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    As you consider the topic -- one more bit of "food for thought".

    You have quoted 2Cor 5:8 the way that you normally hear it quoted in the "popular way". But that is not actually what the text says.

    As far as I know -- no translation renders it "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".

    Yet this is the way you always hear it - because to say it that way DOES render the meaning "when you die you are instantly present with the Lord - by definition".

    However the text "reallly says" that Paul desires "to be absent from the body AND TO BE present with the Lord". Very different from defining the state of death as BEING present with the Lord as in the popular quote.

    In fact in 2Cor 5 Paul gives THREE states.

    1. Alive and clothed in this decaying tent.
    2. unclothed in any tent at all
    3. Clothed with our eternal heavenly body.

    In 1Cor 15 Paul arleady told the church of Corinth when we get our eternal body -- at the resurrection.

    in 2Cor 5:1-4 Paul is very clear that we "groan" while in this decaying tent because we dearly want to AVOID the middle state of "unclothed" -- the state of death where we do not have this decaying earthly tent any longer AND we do not yet have our heavenly tent.

    It is instructive that that middle state is so much worse - so much to be avoided -- that even in THIS state of being clothed in the decaying tent - we would "all" groan about wanting to avoid the unclothed state!

    This is an inconvenient detail from the text that is never highlighted in presentations of it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. ByGracethroughFaith

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    This is why you were taught that.

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    2 Cor 5:6-9 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

    Soul sleep is a heretical teaching.


    BGTF
     
  14. BobRyan

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    IF the soul is at rest -- waiting in a non-conscious state for the resurrection then this exaplains why we see Matt 22 where Christ said "God is NOT the God of the Dead" the reason he says that so confidently is that the dead do not praise God.

    As Paul states in 2Cor 5 -- that middle state of death is the undesired state that we in THIS life groan - longing to avoid.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Have you seen this??

    Martin Luther (1493-1546)


    German reformer and Bible Translator.
    Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :
    "Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14. ​
    Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

    "Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344 ​
    Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

    "Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v. ​
    "But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288 ​
    "Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760 ​
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Anyone seen this?

    William Tyndale (1484-1536),

    English Bible translator and Martyr

    In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.
    "And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 ​
    Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

    "The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180 ​
    In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:
    "And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118 ​
     
  17. drfuss

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    drfuss: I believe I have another perspective on this.

    When I fall asleep at night, sleep for eight hours, and awaken in the morning, the next thing I know after falling asleep is being awake in the morning.

    When I die, my soul may sleep until Jesus comes. However, the next thing I will know after I die will be that I am with Jesus.

    So Paul could say he desired to be absent from the body because the next thing he would know, he would be with Jesus even if his soul slept.

    Frankly, I never though much about this subject, but these are my initial thoughts after reading these posts.

    Is it important whether a soul sleeps or not?
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Amen - preach it!

    Further since in the state of death the soul marks no time at all - it is not "even" as long as deep-sleep to the weary for that sleep carries with it some concept of time passing even if only for a few moments.
     

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