Arminians and eternal security

Pastor Larry,

I’m new to this board and have never responded to you, however, I found your last post in response to Ray Berrian interesting.

IMO, the term “non-elect” is an adequate description of those not among the elect. If one hold’s to the Calvinist view, doesn’t one need to answer the question of God’s dealings with the non-elect? “Preventing” may not be the word of choice among the majority, but how else would one describe it? If God elects some doesn’t He either directly or indirectly, depending upon your preference, refuse the rest and thus “prevent” them from coming to Him? I realize this is not the preferred way of thinking among Calvinist and if I were one myself, I too would refute such an idea. However, the point is, if you one is going to hold themselves to TULIP theology, they must also answer questions about God’s dealings with the non-elect. IMO, simply stating that they “prevent” themselves from coming to Him due to their "own free choices, acting in accordance with their nature" is not sufficient. Personally, if I was a Calvinist, I would want a further explanation. I suppose this explains my intrigue on the subject.

Respectfully submitted and interested in your response.

 

Thanks for your question. Let me answer:

Man is born in sin and thus in condemnation (Ps 51; Rom 3; John 3; Rom 5; Eph 2). He chooses to sin of his own free will; he is not seeking God; does not want God; has ignored God's revelation of himself and exchanged the glory of God for his own imaginations (Rom 1). So God lets him go his way. God is not preventing him from coming. This person does not want to come. In theological terms, this is called preterition. God simply allows him to go as he wants.

God's electing of some has no respect to his decision regarding the rest. He simply passes over them, allowing them to go their own way, to fulfill the desires of their heart (Eph 2). His relation to the non-elect is one of passivity rather than activity. The non-elect may come to Christ at any time they want to.

 

Thank for your response Pastor Larry,

But isn’t this a direct action of God towards the non-elect? I thought the degree of “total depravity” (I realize there’s another thread on this currently but I’d rather not introduce my questions there) extended to man’s ability to comprehend ANY revelation of God? If God deals with the non-elect in His revelation of Himself and they choose to “ignore” it, I understand why you believe He would remain passive to them, however, it now begs the question to me, how do the non-elect “ignore” God’s revelation in the sphere of Total Depravity?

 

Read "Grace of God, Will of Man," edited by Clark Pinnock. In it, you will find everything you need to know about the ARminian response to those chapters. The Arminian position easily accounts for those chapters, and then some.

 

No. It is man who ignores God's revelation of himself (Rom 1).

Yes it does. But it is a moral inability, not a physical one. They see the evidence that God exists. They can read the Scriptures and know that God calls them to believe. They are morally unable and unwilling to respond.

By refusing to accept and sbumit to it. Rom 1 tells us that everyone knows that God exists and knows somethign about God. They reject it and exchange the glory of God for the image of corruptible man under the name of "being wise." In reality they show themselves to be fools.

 

Listen,

Man's own sinful nature is the thing that is 'preventing' him to come to God.

That is why regeneration is required FIRST. Because, without that, a man is dead, therefore will not seek God or understand God.

One cannot have faith without regeneration.
Dead men don't have faith.

This is why i fail to understand how a Arminist can hold to the doctrine of total depravity and still argue that man chooses God.

it's not almost totally depraved
it's TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

Oh, this is a eternal security thread.

On all this, can a arminist account for the 144,000 sealed.

Oh what, was it 'forknowledge'
yeah it just happened that all those numbers where the same.

Looks like God had 'compassion on who he had compassion'

 

Pastor Larry,

Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood but I’m confused by your dissection of this into “moral” and “physical” inability. To me, if the non-elect can “see the evidence that God exists” and “read the Scriptures and know that God calls them to believe”, they can comprehend Divine Revelation. If they comprehend, then Total Depravity isn’t “total”. In fact, following what you’ve said, I thought Total Depravity would affect the physical abilities of man as well.

So you believe God indirectly reveals Himself to the non-elect. That the non-elect can understand that God exists and are held accountable to that knowledge. However, they are unable to respond to this revelation due to Total Depravity. If I’ve correctly summated this, how can the non-elect understand that God exists if they are Totally Depraved? How can they even receive enough knowledge of Divine revelation when they are completely wicked and evil thinkers? I’m not trying to be derogatory or disrespect your convictions. What you’ve said just confuses me.

Thanks for your time.

 

Not really. Read Rom 1:18-32. Everyone knows that God exists. They simply reject it. They comprehend the meaning but they do not comprehend the significance. 1 cor 2:14 says that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them because they are spiritually judged. Until he has a spiritual mind, he cannot understand spiritual things.

Yes, that is the clear teaching of Scripture from the passage cited above. Others could be included.

Becuase the non-spiritual mind does not understand the significance of the spiritual things. Perhaps as an analogy, I could post here a mathematical formula. I remember one from high school chemistry that was a whole page long. I could post it here and we could all read it. We could know it dealt with math and science. But we wouldn't have any idea what it actually did or referred to. We probably wouldn't even care. We would just look at it, turn, and walk away to pursue our own interests. That is the way that the unregenerate responds to revelation. They see it; they recognize it; but they do not understand how it applies to them and they turn and walk away from it to pursue their own interest.

Thanks for your time.[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

Pastor Larry,

I believe I understand your perspective now. Allow me to share my view of Romans 1.

Regardless of what we believe concerning the degree of knowledge mentioned in Rom.1: 19 (“that which may be known of God” - KJV) it is enough for them to know who He is (“when they knew God” v21) and His Judgment (“knowing the judgment of God” v32). IMO, this knowledge goes beyond just a simple understanding of Divine existence. The latter is not a degree of knowledge warranting accountability. Children have this knowledge. The former, however, explains why they are responsible because they know they will be judged for it. “Knowing the judgment of God” goes further than His existence.

How much did Cain know?

I’m sure we could discuss this at length but I think you’ve answered my questions on this posting. Thank you.

 

Hi Ps 104:33;
John 6:44 is right we can't come to the lord unless we are drawn.We are all Drawn every time we here the gospel.I have a brother whom I feel is not saved.He get's mad at me everytime I bring up the subject of Jesus Christ.He doesn't want to hear it because it draws him.
I grew up in a Christian family.Until I was 16 years old I resisted the drawing of the Holy Spirit.I went to church every Sunday for 16 years before I accepted and every time the pastor gave a alter call I was drawn.One of the biggest reason that I didn't accept is because I was embarrassed everyone at church thought I was saved because my parents were saved. Now you said in one of your post what makes one come to God and another doesn't seem to be drawn.Which makes me want to ask you have you ever felt the drawing of the Holy Spirit?.If so how many times did you feel it before you accepted.It's just that I have never met anyone who accepted the first time they heard the gospel and every time you hear the gospel you are drawn.Even after you are saved.which is the reason that you can't come to God unless He draws you.But you sure can resist Him if you wish.All you have to do is not listen...
Romanbear
Peace

 

A quote from Ps 104:33;
There is none that understandeth there is none that seeketh after God
___________________________________________________________
My Reply;
Have you ever thought maybe there wasn't at the time this was written.
I seek him everyday in prayer so this verse wouldn't be true today
Romanbear
Peace

 

As for the brother who does not want to hear about the Lord anymore, I believe he is so under conviction of his need of the Lord that he is standing in total rebellion. Many times before the people bow before Him they put up their worst fight against God who keeps pressing them into a corner. I will take time daily to pray for him. I don't want to offend you but I personally would not keep witnessing to him, more especially if he knows how to pray to the Lord for forgiveness. If the Lord wants to reimpress His witness to your brother, He can easily send someone else to him to lead him to the Lord. Another approach by someone else, at times, is more affective.

I personally believe that wherever a witness is left as to salvation or through preaching that God the Spirit goes to those in need with conviction and convincing power. He is mega-infinitely more pursuasive than we can ever think or try to explain the way into the true faith. You will see how God will pull away your brother's support system until only the Lord will be his way out and into spiritual reality.

I may be wrong on something here; but this is my humble opinion.

 

The one to whom we are drawn says,

The invitation (draw) has been declared, it is now up to us mere mortals to respond!

 

Hi Ray;
Your probably right.It's just that time is short and this has been going on for forty years.I have stopped bringing it up because I don't want him to hate me.But I keep praying that someone with the right words at the right time will run into him and He'll surrender. Thankyou for your note and your prayers.
Romanbear
May God bless
Peace