Arminians/non cals only respond here

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In a previous exchange with Benjamin he disagreed completely with what I posted to a point where he believed it to be non-biblical.....do you agree or disagree with what was discussed in answer to Benjamins question?
    here is the question and response;
    Quote: Discuss any or all of it......

    Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

    Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

    1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

    2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

    3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

    4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

    5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

    6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

    Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

    I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

    1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

    2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

    3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

    4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

    5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

    6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

    7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

    8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

    9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
    24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    and Hebrews 7;
    25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

    As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.


    Quote:
    and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected

    Benjamin...this is a good question...
    I never say it that way....

    1] I do not know if he is elect or not

    2] He does not know if he is elect or not

    3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

    4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
    5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

    6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

    7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

    Benjamin....

    Quote:
    and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2011
  2. webdog

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    Honestly I cannot understand who was saying what.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Webdog,
    Sorry, I edited it...Benjamin was asking the bolded parts...I responded at length. Benjamin took great offence to this part in particular;
    Benjamin thought that this was darkness, and i was a child of the devil,or something along that line.he pulled out this portion.I post the whole thing and ask the question......Do you or anyone make a similar presentation?

    You can respond to some or all of it. Which parts do you agree are a gospel presentation...and which if any do you see as an unbiblical or dark post?

    I seperated this into two seperate threads to try to minimize distracting fights, personal attacks ,etc.....so we can focus on the issue of proper gospel presentation.
     
  4. Benjamin

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    Here is the “real” argument in context: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72690


    Below is just one of my posts trying to hold Iconoclast to a logical deductive argument while he engages in various methods of evasions and circular arguments in his efforts to side step the subject of the OP, to derail the tread, and for lack of better words (rhetorically and deceitfully winks in self-presumed cleverness and pride of his ability to fall back on semantics thinking to avoid any logical conclusions on what he has admitted about his Doctrine of “pre-selected” Grace) while he strives about to continue with his teaching others his “bible truth” which is equal to nothing less than a heretical-hyper determinist view that some men have no hope because they have not been pre-selected:


    Post #184:

    Try to follow the argument Iconoclast:






    It’s a legitimate question Iconoclast, and you revealed by your method of witnessing that you indeed use window dressings to cover up your “bible truth” that “you don’t know if they are elect or not” and “God has not planned to save everyone”. THAT means you believe THAT grace is limited to the “pre-selected few”… REALLY!

    Put together the dots and you will see exactly why I said, “your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few”

    Your presentation of the Gospel and communicating is full of deceit, you clearly show you are not up front with your witnessing above unless they scoff at you, then you proclaim that you will lay it on them that basically/practically they DO have an excuse not to believe because of your warped belief that God might not have pre-selected them as elect. BUT that’s not what the Bible says, the Bible says all God ways are judgment, that none have an excuse, that the offer of grace extends to all His creatures AND He is Truth in this matter and all matters. All this is covered in the OP but instead of following an argument you want to play games of circular arguments. (You say, “Where did I proclaim pre-selection/fore-election?!?” :rolleyes:) Or is it that you struggle with the word “real”?

    Now read my final reply below to your example of witnessing, note your deception through the window dressing, (do you know what I mean by window dressing?) and note the relevance of the question of whether or not you would lie to your own children or tell them your “bible truth” and hope that they are pre-selected. What if they “tried to mock or scoffed at you”? Is it then they get your “bible truth” about election? I’m sorry if you can not see the deceit in “your ways” and how it is rooted in lie after lie all to hold on to and support your false manmade doctrine. Answer the question. Do you have a double standard or not?





    I told my children the truth of our Loving God and “His way” of offering forgiveness for whosoever will believe His Truth. I didn’t have to hold anything back or disguise my belief; I put it all on the table for whosoever I am witnessing to. Friend, God does not have a double standard!

     
    #4 Benjamin, Jul 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2011
  5. Benjamin

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    Nice try, but NO, Iconoclast it was another tread that I repeated Jesus’ Words about being a child of the devil that you apparently took personal; maybe because the shoe must have fit?…

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72844&page=4

    Here is it again:

    Post # 33

    Anyone (highlighted for clarity) who attributes sin and evil to God is a liar and a child of the Devil, the truth is not them!

    Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Jesus, the Word, had a reply for those who attributed sin to Him: John 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

    He told us who would be saying such lies:

    John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    God did not create, decree, ordain sin or evil, it came from the Devil, he was responsible:

    Eze 28:14-18
    (14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    (15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    (16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    (17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    (18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

    The Devil is the one who lied in the garden and told men they could be as gods, and the Devil and his helpers attempt to attribute sin and evil onto God today, they say the Word is not Truth. They say we can not seek God.
    Amo 5:14
    (14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.

    The Devil brought sin onto the world and Jesus, the Word was manifested for this purpose and those who believe in the Goodness of God are the ones who have the truth.

    1Jn 3:8
    (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    This is the message of the Word which God’s sons hear:

    1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    …And this is for the message of the Devil and his liars, who tell lies and attempt to hide it within their words:

    Isa 5:20-21
    (20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    (21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Hello Benjamin,
    Why do you not respond to the whole post point by point.
    Show what you are in agreement with and what you find disagreeable.

    This disagreement ran through several threads...but now it is right here and you can take time and see what you agree with and what you do not.

    That is not difficult. Show plainly the basis for your claim.
     
  7. Benjamin

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    I'm tired of casing your rabbit trails and having to defend the truth against people who attribute evil to God and preach a message of darkness on a Christian board.

    I've had enough debate with you to know you are either incapable or unwilling of following a logical argument. I'm done. Better things to do than rehash this.

    Have at it.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    I Never have said that God is the author of sin......just that nothing exists outside of Gods control////sin, satan,evil, are all controlled by God.

    There is no message of darkness...just bible truth that can be seen and explained. I have asked you to respond here openly and show where you think is a "message of darkness"...whatever that means.

    You are not quite up to it...I understand.:thumbsup:

    I am very willing to offer a scriptural defence for anything I have posted.

    I think maybe you know that you have over reacted and cannot actually give a reason for your claims. If you were concerned about "darkness" being spread,make your case scripturally when and if you can.

    Let's see where the light is.:smilewinkgrin:

    Yes...you were the first time around.
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2011
  9. Skandelon

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    Icon, where did Satan's intent to "become like God" originate?

    Did God come up with that intent and make Satan's nature so that he would certainly have that intent? Or did Satan come up with it on his own?
     
  10. Rippon

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    Rabbit trails?! He's asking you to stay on track. Deal with the specifics of the OP. You are the evasive one.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    There in lies your problem..... "Intolerance"
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    Intent:

    1. Something that is intended; purpose; design; intention: The original intent of the committee was to raise funds.


    According to the definition I'd say yes, it was all intentional. Or perhaps you want to use another word now?

    Certainly God created him with this, purposely, knowingly, and permissively, to accomplish His purposes, and satan fell right into Gods plan.

    Wonder who created such a being with such a potential ability knowing he could use this and cause so much suffering?

    Hypothetical situation: If a person created a living organism, and in design he purposely permitted this living organism to have the potential to go out and let's see, burn down entire neighborhoods killing many people, and it did it, who would society blame? I guarantee it wouldn't be the creature alone.

    Satan is a created being. Under Gods control. This didn't just "occur" to God when it happened. :eek:

    He already knew it and His plan went forth. As a matter of fact, since things are not out of His control, perhaps God wanted all that has happened to take place, (call it whichever "will" you need to) and so it has and is.

    I know people struggle with that and become angry, and go into "so what you're saying is...!!!" and other pejoratives, but it is what it is, and when one elaborates upon this others become inflamed.

    Does this make God the "author" of sin, and other accusatory adjectives? Define your terms.

    I trust Him in it all. Anyone else also?

    - Peace
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Well, this is a thread by itself yet,let me briefly add to what others have posted.

    God as creator defines and controls everything in His creation. All created beings are bound by His special revelation the scriptures.God alone can reveal what is right and what was wrong.

    If anything in creation,lives, moves, or has it's being outside of God's control, God is no longer God. We can be thankful that His sovereignty extends to every molecule,atom,pricipality, power,any and all of God's universe.

    Somewhere between this time and the fall we know there was evil and sin in the angelic realm first.

    Most look to the verses benjamin posted, particularly vs 15.

    Angelic beings while made good were yet untested.Like Adam they were not yet confirmed in Holiness....being untested.

    Man likewise created good ,yet untested.

    Lucifer had the ability to rebel against God and the created order. He took it upon himself to do so....his own ability and self will, and pride seem to be what caused his downfall. The desire to rebel against God's sovereignty seems to be the motivation.

    The scripture speaks of elect angels who did not sin.it speaks of fallen angels also. God as creator and sustainer of all things created both angels and man with the ability to be able to rebel and sin. The fact that they sinned shows they were able to.
    God did not force them ,or push them to sin. He evidently did not restrain them. That is God's buisness why, how, and what factors were necessary to have it come to pass.
    That Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world and the elect were consider as fallen in a Redeemer shows that God's design was fully accomplished in all wisdom and perfect in Holiness.

    God could have just made a universe out of bumble bees,and flowers...if that was what wisdom would have dictated......but it did not.
    There is no contingency...just what is. The events unfold by the Holy and loving design of a thrice Holy God and every event of every day happens exactly as purposed by God.
    He never goes to plan B. He never gets taken by surprise. Nothing happens that was not allowed to happen. No one gets saved unless God uses the means of grace to rescue and redeem His elect.
    Men and fallen angels are fully responsible before God. There is never in reality a what if. There is only what is.

    God can speak of those believers who are to killed before it takes place,and yet God allows evil persons to kill believers. God told some of the Apostles how they would die,He did not prevent it from happening. As with Job...God has it all under His hand for His purpose.....not our wants, desires, or speculations about what could,or should have taken place!
    We can rest our living hope in His everlasting arms.
     
  14. JesusFan

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    interesting posulation both sides here!

    Did God create Lucifer with intent and purpose to "destine" him to become satan and the Great Deiver?
    Dtermined Will of God, and direct caused by God to be His and ours "Great enemy?"

    Did God create Lucifer with free will that potentially could go evil by choice, and predetermine thatonce he chose to become satan, that His will and plans would use that act for His grand purposes to be fulfilled?
     
  15. Winman

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    It's a joke, Calvinists must preach the gospel like an Armininian, putting all emphasis on BELIEVEING. They can't honestly tell a person that Jesus loves them, they can't honestly tell a person Jesus died for them. They are left ONLY with telling people to BELIEVE. Then AFTER the person trusts Christ they must explain what just happened to them. Ridiculous!

    If the poor fellow who just trusted Christ dare says he believed on Jesus, he will be assaulted on all sides, told that he hated God, and the only reason he believed was because God regenerated him to be able. That must be pretty shocking to hear the first time, but after the new convert reads the stack of Reformed authors he is told to read, he is soon convinced that is exactly what happened to him, though he was completely unaware of it at the time.

    "Jesus might love me, but I don't know, for John Piper says this is so"

    Joke.
     
  16. Skandelon

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    Agreed, and I'm asking where you believe it originated. The thought or intent to do evil had to originate/begin/start somewhere. Was it in God or his creature?

    I understand, but my question is: Where did that desire to rebel originate? In God or the creature?

    We both agree they were able, but that doesn't answer the question above, does it?

    So, can I take that as an "I don't know?" If you don't know this then why couldn't you affirm the possibility of contra-causal free will (sometimes call libertarian freewill) and simply appeal to mystery as to its inner workings? That way you could affirm the CLEAR biblical teaching regarding God's holiness and separateness from sin in every regard.

    Is it not possible that God created beings with the ability of first-cause choice, in that they can originate thoughts, desires and reason within themselves to make final determinations, in much the same way God does? Couldn't that be what separates us from the animals as being His image bearers? Must we reduce man's moral choices to animal instinct all so you can appeal to mystery anyway when it comes to the origin of evil choice?
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    Clearly you don't know calvinists/reformed/DoG brethren at all.

    I'm one, and I preach like one, and I can honestly tell someone Jesus loves them, that He died for them, and am not left only with telling them to believe. But what is wrong with telling a person they need to believe?

    After the person gets saved God tells them what happened, and many of them embrace the DoG's and reformed beliefs. :thumbsup:

    The believer is attacked and assaulted on all sides for saying he trusted Christ? No. I know some that got saved who hated god, as a matter of fact, it's Scriptural to do so, because that is where lost men are, at warfare with God, haters of God, hostile in their minds toward God and much much more! I have seen you not like this before, and yet, you still don't seem to like this truth of mans state from within the Scriptures.

    I get the idea you would mock and malign such for admitting this truth, for which they have Scriptures (haters of God &c)? Would that upset you they believe this? You seem pretty upset about it for sure.

    The believer is told to read a stack of reformed authors? Why would that be wrong if it were the case (which it's not)? What would be incorrect with reading Berkhof, Edwards, Whitefield, Owen? Men who walked with God and preached to the saving of souls?

    Yes, God regenerated them and enabled them to believe/receive! He even enables persons to love Him.

    Yes, we are not completely aware of all that took place, theologically and Scripturally speaking, at the moment of salvation, but the beauty of this knowledge of what God did is read within the Scriptures and it is comforting.

    Also Paul, in his epistles told Gods people exactly what happened when they were saved, explaining it to them in detail, especially in Ephesians, Colossians. You sound like you're saying you understood each and every theological thing that took place right at that moment, correct? ANd that it is ioncorrect to explain to them what happened at that moment they believed, correct? It is in fact what you are saying.

    You knew all about being called, elected, sanctified, justified, and glorified, knew about foreknowledge, and could name and explain each one, correct?

    - Peace
     
  18. Winman

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    Impossible. If you are a true 5 Point Calvinist who believes Limited Atonement, then you cannot honestly tell ANYBODY that Jesus died for them. You can't, because you don't know that it is true.

    Fact is, if you believe in Limited Atonement, you cannot possibly know Jesus died for YOU.

    The gospel is more than simply believeing Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead. You must believe Jesus died for YOUR sins.

    I do not see how anybody can truly believe on Jesus unless they know for a FACT that Jesus died for THEIR SINS personally. If I did not know for a fact that Jesus died for ME, I would be in constant fear and doubt.

    But thank God, the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus died for ALL MEN without exception, so I know the atonement is not limited and covers me.
     
  19. webdog

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this a thread where iconoclast wanted to engage arminians and non cal's?

    I think we see where some of the error happens when gleening instructions from the Bible when some cannot follow simple instructions here.
     
  20. webdog

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    I have an issue with "allow a sinner to repent" when He specifically commands it. Where God guides He provides, and has done so already with His desire that man repents. He doesn't command all men to repent while "allowing" the few to actually do it.
     
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