In a previous exchange with Benjamin he disagreed completely with what I posted to a point where he believed it to be non-biblical.....do you agree or disagree with what was discussed in answer to Benjamins question? here is the question and response; Quote: Discuss any or all of it...... Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected? Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go; 1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed. 2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute 3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him. 4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. 5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with. 6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church. Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this; I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc. 1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy. 2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept 3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly 4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ. 5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made. 6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons. 7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost 8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus.... 9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. and Hebrews 7; 25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way. Quote: and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected Benjamin...this is a good question... I never say it that way.... 1] I do not know if he is elect or not 2] He does not know if he is elect or not 3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners 4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel. 5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command. 6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins....... 7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam. Benjamin.... Quote: and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.