Arminians, what about the Iraqi's?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 17, 2003.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Did God plan for the war that is about to happen?

    The Arminian is in an awkward position. How will God ever reach those people? The freewill of man is going to produce war. All those people who will have never heard, never had a chance to use their "free" will to be saved, will die and go to hell.

    What about their "free will"?

    Not only is it a theology of no assurance, but it has God trying to pick up the pieces of all the mess man makes.
     
  2. William C

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    Do you mean "plan" as in God being in total control making the war happen. Or do you mean "plan" as in He knew that this would happen and allowed it?
     
  3. Daniel David

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    Bill, I was very surprised to see you duck the question and try to hijack the thread.

    Do any other arminians want to answer?
     
  4. Yelsew

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    Do you think they would have heard under Saddam?
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Yelsew, I think your posts are somewhat cyrptic. What are you saying?
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Preach the Word,

    God has always known that there would be an Iraqi War. I feel that we are being used by His hand to liberate these repressed people. Maybe as time goes on, our peace keepers will be able to witness to the wonderful reality of Jesus. I know these would be among the minority of Americans, but hopefully this Gospel will reach more than presently. Our Christian love as a nation will have a positive influence on their lives as we give them aid, food, and medicine.

    You spoke of assurance. There is not meant to be any assurance to the lost only those who are saved by faith in the blood of His Cross.

    The Iraqi have a free will as does every other human being. The problem is that they, generally speaking, have not heard the wonderful story and facts of Christ's life and crucifixion for the sins of the world.
     
  7. Frogman

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    What about the ones who are killed in the war, if not civilians, do the soldeirs have no soul? Perhaps we can manage some kind of peace and the Word of God may be heard among them widespread, but what of the ones who die before this era of good feelings?

    Yelsew,

    No man can hear the Gospel except it be by the Spirit. No man, not even Saddam, can bind the Spirit of God.

    '...but the word of God is not bound.' 2 Tim. 2.9

    Does this scripture have any power to an Arminian, or a free-willer? No, because they are actively seeking to bind the word of God.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. Eric B

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    What's the point of this? "Oh, we (Calvinists) can better explain all these lost souls who get killed without a chance to hear the Gospel. They were just the "non-elect". It's all figured out. Simple, perfect explanation. So this too proves our view" Right? (And you wonder what I meant in the the thread about what the scripture does not teach)
    We are trying to explain and rationalize all this stuff that really only God could know. If we agree about shatring the Gospel, we should be doing that, not spending so much time speculating on all we will never reach, or who will not respond, and why. (Do you see any such emphasis on that in the scripture?)
     
  9. William C

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    Duck the question and hijack the thread? :confused: :eek:

    You're a bit extreme there PTW, I simply asked you to clarify your question by asking: "Do you mean "plan" as in God being in total control making the war happen. Or do you mean "plan" as in He knew that this would happen and allowed it?"

    You're the one that ducked out of that question, I was just seeking to understand where you were coming from so I could better answer your question, so please chill out.
     
  10. Sularis

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    Just to relate something I was told - by fellow Christians who claim that of all the arabic states that Iraq is one of the most CHristian friendly state there is and such we shouldnt bomb em
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Are the Iraqies hearing the word under Saddam? A post Saddam Iraq is the ideal Missionary field.
     
  12. Frogman

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    There is a nation called Bhutan which is a Bhuddist kingdom with a constitutional monarchy. The only religions they recognize as valid are Hinduism and Bhuddism. All others are persecuted and prevented by law from preaching their doctrines.

    Believers from India have been crossing the border into Bhutan for years and have been evangelizing and their work is blessed as God also has among our brothers and sisters and elect group from Bhutan.

    Would you consider this evangelization to be error because it is illegal?

    As I said above, the word of God is not bound. When the time comes for one of His elect to be born into the kingdom, what man, what government is going to prevent this from happening?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. William C

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    God's elect are those God chooses to allow entrance in His covenant. In the Old Testament it was commonly believed to be Israel it the New Testament God chose to reconcile the world by geniunly choosing or electing to call all men unto himself in a covenant relationship that is entered simply through faith.

    God ordains the means that people are to hear through the preaching of the word but despite God's longing to gather his creation under his wings sometimes they are unwilling (Matt. 23:37) and resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

    Therefore, the only one who is going to prevent a man being born again is that man's own unwillingness to believe when presented with the gospel.

    As for God's "elect"? God "elects" the world.
     
  14. William C

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    After typing that last post a question came to mind:

    If when God elected Israel he only offered Israel entrance into his covenant through circumsicsion. Why would he offer entrance to all men by calling all men to faith if he only "elected" a few of those who are called?

    In other words, only Israel was elected so only Israel was called to circumscision.

    Now, you say only "the elect" are elected but everyone is seemily called to faith. Why?

    Doesn't it make more sense to call only the elect to faith, since being called is what qualifies you as being the elect?

    If I come to you and say, "Come to my house." Then I have elected you to come. I have chosen for you to be there. That doesn't mean you will come, but my election of you remains.

    During the 1st century the only ones who were not elected by God were hardened Israel. For a sovereign purpose of Christ's crucifixtion and the ingrafting of the Gentiles, God chose not to grant them entrance as he was everyone else, but keep in mind this was temporary. Many of those who crucified Christ believed and were saved later in Acts (2-3).
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    It seems to me a greater concern than the Iraqi is that vast and numberless people who Calvinists call the poor non-elect. You welcome them and shoe-horn them into Hell and then blame the just God for doing what your minds have contrived Him as doing.

    For one thing 'the Coliation of the Willing' have had every privilege in hearing the Gospel. Namely, USA, England, Ireland, Spain, Augstralia, and Portugal, plus perhaps other European countries. Our Christian chaplains minister communion to the soldiers before they enter the battle zone, if they choose to receive it.

    As far as the citizens of Iraqi we are not electing to target private homes, mosques, or schools. As a side line, Saddam hid, during the last war in his nation in private homes. In the long run, our Christian love will be shown to Iraqi people in the form of food, shelter, medicine and the opportunity to form a democratic government.

    Personally, I believe the Lord is overseeing all of this event and will bring a greater good out of it all.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    I get the magazine Voice of the Martyrs and I noticed that Iraq has 23,114,994 in the year 2,000 and that the population of Muslims is 96.85% while Christian people amount only to 1.55% about 1 & ½ percent of the entire 23 million people.

    Kuwait 1,971,634 with 87.43 % Muslim and 8.17 or about 8 and 1/5 % Christian.

    Libya 5,604,722 about five and one half million with 96.50% Muslim and 3% Christian.

    Indonesia 2l2,991,926 with 80.30% Muslim and 16% Christian.

    Iran 67,702,199 population with 99.02% Muslim and less than 1% Christian-0.33% --one third of only 1% Christian.

    Turkey 66,590,940 population with 99.64% Muslim and 0.32% Christian less than one third of one percent.

    Algeria-31,471,278 with 96.68% Muslim and 0.29% Christian. A quote from Special Issue 2003 says, 'Islamic Salvation Front, whose members have been known to march through town and slit the throats of anyone who has not lived up to their call to Islamic fundamentalism.'

    Islamic Law coming out of the Koran and strengthened by their national laws forbids witnessing to or trying to convert the native countrymen to Christ's salvation to everlasting life. Punishment can be persecution, imprisonment or even death.

    ALL INFORMATION BORROWED. All statistics as to population were taken in 2,000 A.D.

    Actually, Kuwait has a much higher percentage of Christians than are in Iraq. Kuwait's 8.17% as to Iraq's 1.55% or one and one half percent Christian.

    Hopefully, "the reconstruction" of Iraq will bring a greater freedom in which we can seed the land with the Gospel coming from our Savior, Jesus Christ.
     
  17. Frogman

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    I also get VOM that this information shows that God is saving his elect doesn't it.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Primitive Baptist

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    The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Proverbs 21:1)

    "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets." (Isaiah 10:5, 6)

    For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done [it], and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant [man]: And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs [that are] left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? [or] shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake [itself] against them that lift it up, [or] as if the staff should lift up [itself, as if it were] no wood." (Isaiah 10:13-15)

    GOD IS SOVEREIGN. HIS COUNSEL WILL STAND, AND ALL HIS PURPOSES WILL COME TO PASS.
     
  19. Kiffin

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    I get VOM also. Excellent Newsletter every American Christian should get! [​IMG]
     
  20. William C

    William C
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    Why does God like Americans better than Iraqi's if he is not a respector of persons?

    Why does God elect more people in Texas than he does in California?

    If Calvinism is correct then its clear over the last 100 years that millions more people were elected who were born in the States than those who were born in Arab countries and Asia. Does God just favor white people so he elected more of us? There are more black Christains living in the States than in Africa, does God like black Americans more than black Africans?

    He must, look at the numbers, he has surely elected more in the States if we simply look at the facts over the last century.

    Its also clear that God perfers women over men and younger people over older people. However, there are less younger people per capita coming to Christ than 50 years ago. Has God's electing slowed down along with the economy?

    These facts just don't line up with Calvinistic thought.
     

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