At what point do you stop believing.......

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, May 3, 2003.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    in the "soon" return of Christ. It has been 53 years since Isreal became a nation again. Hal Lindsey and other "prophecy experts" said it would be that generation(40 years)that would see the coming of Christ. Is there a point in time you might reconsider your Escatological view?

    Revelation 1
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must SOON take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR.
     
  2. Daniel David

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    Grasshopper, how long until you realize that Lindsey and the other bafoons do not represent all pretrib/premillers?

    He is an idiot.

    Israel "becoming a nation" has NOTHING to do with the timing of the rapture.

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

    I can't believe a primitive baptist is lecturing about good theology. :rolleyes:
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    Actually, grasshopper, that is a misquote. The Bible says that generation will not pass away...so while a generation may be 40 years, if it were based on my generation (I was born in 1949 & I think it was 1948 when Israel became a nation again), then I'm still alive & kicking (so far). So if it is my generation, then you guys would have to wait until we have all croaked (gone home to be with the Lord), before you could discount & stop believing...(if you were going by that factor in your pre-trib belief, unlike Daniel David). [​IMG]

    So....my generation probably has another 20 or maybe 30 years left before we all die out. Then maybe some would stop believing. Hope that helps, even though what I posted is probably clear as mud! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Myself, I'm looking for the upper taker, not the undertaker! [​IMG]
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Perhaps a softer answer might be in order, my friend.

    The answer to your question, grasshopper, is I will reconsider my theology when 1) the word of God changes or 2) when someone shows me a different perspective using legitimate hermeneutics and analogia fidei. Having read much from the major amill and post mill works, I find myself less convinced that I ever was of it. It was their writings that solidified my opposition.

    Changing your view because of the passage of time was what led to the development of amill and postmill theology. The early church, until post 300, was premill. When the church looked at the world and saw things they didn't expect, they developed a new theology of it. Your view wasn't even around at the time of the early church. It was developed because of the very reason you give above. But that cannot be a good reason to change views. We need something more solid. However, DD is certainly right. Lindsey and some of these others certainly don't speak for all of us. Let's let Scripture stand on its own.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Paul expected the rapture in his lifetime. He would actually, literally, physically be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. (I Thess 4:17)

    In case you bought the preterist line, let me share with you that IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. And last time I checked, it STILL HASN'T HAPPENED.

    Jesus hasn't returned (unless you're of the cults that believe Jesus returned "spiritually" in 1914 and began the kingdom) "as you've seen Him go". (Acts 1:6) Nope.

    So, I will just keep simplistically believing by faith that God did not lie or deceive or confuse - He WILL come again as He promised

    And I want to be ready!
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Dr. Bob, I respect your views more than anyone else on this board. You said Paul expected a rapture in his lifetime, I agree. Why did he expect it? Because that is what Jesus taught. It would happen soon. You also said God does not decieve, I again agree. So why did all the NT writers when speaking of the end of the age and return of Christ use dozens of time references indicating it was soon? This is the big stumbling block I can't get around, this is why most of preterism makes sense to me.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    I think it is perhaps the word "soon" that is causing the most trouble. Consider this:

     
  8. Istherenotacause

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    Just as an input on the "this generation shall not pass until", a generation is 40 years, but a man's life expectancy is 70. So if we were to put a time frame on the rapture by considering the "birth" of the nation of Israel in 1948, 70 years would put it no later than 2018. I will say that I'm not trying to date the rapture, but Jesus did say,"a little while", no, not "soon", but a little while.

    Like Dr. Bob, but maybe one step further, I'm READY!

    I saw a lady in our church one morning driving through the graveyard. I asked her if she was seeing if the rapture had happened yet! [​IMG] :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  9. Me2

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    to some within the "sinful and adulterous" generation that Jesus was speaking to. the truth was they would spiritually die. at pentacost. no longer being a member of that "generation"

    to others within the same generation of Gods chosen "disobedient" people. they would die of old age.

    the generation is not a time span, but a group of chosen people within Gods family who live by the "law of the flesh".

    and concerning eschatological beliefs. if you have one that cant be proven today. your running down a rabbit hole if your thinking that you will find the answer waiting for tomorrow.

    tomorrow never comes.

    If God cant prove himself and his plans to you today..it could be your imagination running wild..all by itself.

    if you are holding onto a belief that cant be proven. would you stake your spiritual identity and well being on it?.

    remember. all knowledge of God is delivered in two
    parts BY FAITH...wisdom and understanding.
    one part without the other is, well lets just say it sounds like babbling in tounges......
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    They say Jesus is coming soon!
    Is that so hard to understand?
    When you breathe your last
    I tell you this!
    The time is at hand!... Brother Glen :D

    Btw Grasshopper by his profile is a Southern Baptist... I'm the Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  11. Tim

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    Attention Pastor Larry & Dispensationalists:
    Quoting Pastor Larry:"Your view wasn't even around at the time of the early church."

    Ahem. Ditto. Premill does not equal dispensational. Read a little Justin Martyr sometime--he would never be welcome in dispensational camps today (hint : the church is spiritual Israel), yet they often cite him as an early representative of their beliefs. Sorry, but I've read him, so those arguments don't work for me.

    Grasshopper, your question is very important. There are literally (and I use that word purposefully) dozens of N.T. references to a "soon", "quick", etc. return of Christ. A normal reading (again puposeful) of those passages would lead us to believe that the apostles were sadly misled and misleading their readers unless they were referring to the soon coming judgment upon Israel in those cases. Some form of preterism (though not systematized) was thus probably assumed by many in the early church--knowing that God may use figurative language, but he would not mislead us about the return of Christ.

    I'll post more soon,

    Tim

    P.S. What did I mean by "soon"? Hmmm. Maybe I should say, I'll get back to you "quickly"? No. "Shortly"? Gasp--words escape me, lest I be misunderstood.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    So Peter, speaking of the second coming and the way preterists (and others) would think it MUST COME "SOON", answers the dilemma. God will come when He comes.

    A thousand years? Nothing. A day. Been two thousand now, still nothing. Two days. Soon.

    Maybe it won't be until another two thousand years! Okay, coupla more days. :rolleyes:
     
  13. PJ

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    Well spoken.
    PJ [​IMG]
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    A thousand years? Nothing. A day. Been two thousand now, still nothing. Two days. Soon.

    Yet we must believe in a 7 day 24-hour creation?
     
  15. Tim

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    Dr. Bob,
    I understand your point. But I believe that Peter is even here refering primarily to the Lord's judgement of Jerusalem. Consider the statement in 2 Pet. 3:4, "since the fathers fell asleep ..."--a statement well-fitting to the Jews of Peter's day, but really out of phase for any modern gentile scoffer. The figurative language--heavens passing away, elements melting-- is nearly parallel to the language of Hebrews 12--which speaks of the transition from O.T. Israel to the N.T. church. The "elements" here are not chemical elements (undiscovered then), but rather the same "elements" as in Gal. 4:3 & 9, and also called "rudiments" in Col. 2:8 & 20--those things associated with the Jewish world. Indeed the gold of the temple did melt right into the cracks of the rocks --symbolic of the collapse of the whole system.

    The first taste of the new heavens and new earth was exhibited in this changeover from the Jewish system to the Christian faith, (though we still wait for a fuller manifestation yet to come). This "all ready, but not yet fully" is a common theme in N.T. doctrine.

    So ultimately, I think this interpretation allows Pter to be consistent with the many "soon" and "shortly" and "at hand" prophecies of the Lord's coming judgment. Israel was the example of what the whole world will experiance one day.

    Your partial-preterist brother in Christ,

    Tim
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

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    'FIG TREE'

    Pretribulationists intepreting 'fig tree' of Matt 24:32 is Israel as nation.

    During in 1980's, Hal Linsdey believed we are in the last generation because of 40 years since Israel become nation in 1948. That the rapture might happen in our generation within 40 years.

    'Fig tree' of Matt 24:32 is misintepreting by pretribbers.

    Jesus used parable to use fig tree for the sign. Fig tree is the picture of sign, that we will see the signs are happening to show us, his coming draw near.

    There is another verse refer with Matt 24:32-33 -in Luke 21:29-30 Jesus said, "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now night at hand."

    Clearly, Jesus was not spoken on Israel as fig tree. He spoken about watch the signs to happening that these signs show us, his coming draw near.

    Matt 24:32-33 and Luke 21:29-30 both have do nothing with Israel as nation. Both are talking about watch the signs are happening to show us Lord's coming draw near.

    But, no one know when Christ comes, we must be watch and be ready for his coming.

    Another thing, I want to telling you something about imminence doctrine. Pretrib teaches that Christ might come anytime probably, today, tonight or tomorrow, or next week.

    I respect them.

    Early Church were expecting Lord might come in their lifetime. But, they also expecting to face tribulation and Antichrist first before Lord comes.

    Paul told them, that Christ shall not come till we will see apostasy(falling away) first and the revealed of Antichrist - 2 Thess 2:3.

    I do expect Christ might come in my lifetime, but I expect tribulation and Antichrist might appear in my lifetime before Christ comes.

    I do looking forward for Jesus Christ comes.

    Pretribbers accuse on posttribbers, that they saying on them, they are look for Antichrist not Christ.

    That is not true.

    Some pretribbers accuse on them, that they rob bless hope - Titus 2:13.

    That is not true.

    All posttribbers include me are looking for the bless hope and the coming of the Lord, blessed hope is not "pretrib rapture". Blessed hope is eternal life - Titus 1:2; and 3:7 too same with 2:13.

    Of course we are looking forward for eternal life and have new body - Romans 8:19-25 and 1 Cor. 15:51-54 too.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. Daniel David

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    No we don't. Perhaps there are those that do. Most of those guys lost their credibility in predicting the date of Christ's return.

    I am pretrib and reject such a notion.

    Here is my question for you: how many times will you post what either you think we believe or what you want others to think we believe?
     
  18. Primitive Baptist

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    In Matthew 24, Jesus made reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. However, Jesus also prophesied of His coming and of the end of the age. Paul expected the coming of the Lord in his lifetime because Jesus warned His disciples, "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (Luke 12:40)

    "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Pet. 3:8)

    "The Apostles on the Olivet Discourse"
    Elder David Pyles
    http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/olivet.html
     
  19. Tim

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    If Paul was merely expressing his own thoughts, then I would have no problem saying that he expected something to happen soon which did not, but he was writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who kept him from writing anything in error. So how could he write that something was about to happen (not just that he hoped so)and be wrong?

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Let me see, we are supposed to forgive
    70 times 7. So we probably should wait
    490 days before we give up on the soon
    return of Jesus. But one day is as one
    thousand years to God. So i guess we
    really should wait in our time 490,000 years
    before up on the soon return of Jesus.
    Been about 2,000 years so far, only
    470,000 left to wait, before we give up. [​IMG]
     

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