At what point does error condemn?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by FLMike, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. FLMike

    FLMike
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I read something in another thread that prompted this question. I gather that all of us admit that we hold to some errors in our beliefs. On the one hand, we don't think our salvation is threatened by our imperfect understanding, but on the other hand I see many pronouncements that other people's imperfect understanding may or will definitely send them to hell.

    So, does error condemn? What error? How can we know if we hold to fatal error?
     
  2. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Those errors that pertain to salvation and the person of Jesus Christ will certainly condemn a person to Hell. Christ must be the Christ of the Bible or He is not Christ at all, and has no power to save. It is Christ who is the way of salvation; any other way is a false way. Thus our way must be Christ's way, as defined by the Bible. No other way will do. There is but one way to heaven.
    DHK
     
  3. FLMike

    FLMike
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    So then we may "safely" hold any error, except that even the smallest error regarding "the person of Jesus Christ" will certainly condemn a person to hell? How can any person know that the Christ they believe in is 100% "the Christ of the Bible"? Is 99% not enough? 90%? It seems that in our fallen human state, expecting 100% perfection regarding our understanding of Christ's revelation of Himself is simply impossible. By your standard it seems we are all doomed.

    Perhaps you will say that the Holy Spirit will insure this 100% perfection in our understanding of Christ. But what then when I meet another Christian who says the same thing but believes differently in one item? How can I be confident that I have 100% correct belief, and that he is therefore doomed to hell?

    Now if I'm exaggerating, and "100% understanding" is not what you are claiming as necessary, then what exactly is necessary, and how can one know that, whatever error one may hold to, one has no error in those necessary things?
     
  4. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    How many of us can honestly say that when we became Christians, we explicitly and correctly understood every biblical teaching of who the person of Christ is and every biblical teaching of what salvation is?

    How many of us can honestly say we correctly understand them all now?
     
  5. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Some deny the trinity--that affects the person of Christ.
    Some deny the deity of Christ.
    Some deny the humanity of Christ.
    J.W.'s say that Christ is Michael the archangel.
    Mulsims say that he is only a prophet.
    Many say that he was just a good man.
    Oneness (denying the trinity) say that Christ is the Father.

    Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead, fully God and fully man, God manifest in the flesh, born of a virgin, lived among men a sinless life, crucified, buried and rose again, a bodily resurrection on the third day.
    One could add much more. But if you don't believe in the Christ of the Bible, then you don't believe in Christ at all (such as the Muslims).
    DHK
     
  6. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK
    That covers the nature of Christ. You probably have a similar shortlist covering Salvation...
     
  7. FLMike

    FLMike
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    DHK,

    I understand you to say that it's not enough to believe in Christ, but that we must believe in exactly the right Christ. Therefore, all those who sincerely and fervently believe in Christ, but not the "right" Christ, are doomed. And that would include, I imagine, most of the self-identified Christians in the world (most Catholics, most Orthodox, and the various sects and cults that profess to believe in Christ).

    So then is your position that most of those who profess belief in Christ are doomed nonetheless?
     
  8. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually DHK's definition of the right Christ in this thread is not going to cause any problems to any informed Roman Catholic. I suspect his Salvation shortlist is going to change that.
     
  9. FLMike

    FLMike
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Yes and yes. [​IMG]
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    This is a very good question. Many suppose that the RCC is so loaded down with error that there is no salvation inside the RCC.

    The RCC at one time considered everyone else to be so loaded down with errot that she said there was "no salvation OUTSIDE the RCC" AND committed herself to the "extermination" (Lateran IV) of all Christians and Jews who differed with her.

    IN 1 Tim 3 Paul says that the scriptures known by Timothy BEFORE he was a christian led him to salvation back then.

    In Heb 11 we see PRE-CROSS saints - without the NT.

    In John the Baptist we see another pre-cross saint.

    In Enoch and Elijah we see precross saints taken directly to heaven.

    In Moses and Elijah - we see pre-cross saints talking with Christ on the mount of transfiguration.

    If NT writers are not willing to say that Jews are lost simply for BEING Jews - then how much error CAN a Christian hold to -- and still be saved?

    My proposed solution is that this is the wrong way to look at it. Its like saying - how many times can you teenager punch his little brother before you call the police. A million times? 10,000? 1000? 100? 50? What if they are just one short of your number but then only punch one more time?

    The measure is all wrong. It should be stated in the form of being a loving child and sibling vs not.

    In the same way - it is the "love of the Truth" (2Thess2) that divides the saints from the sinners. Not the "amount of truth". Christ IS the Way the TRUTH and the life! If you don't have a LOVE of the Truth (that is you HAVE some truth and WANT MORE) then you don't really love Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Yes and yes. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Quite true.
    The gospel is defined in 1Cor.15:3,4--that Christ died, was buried, and rose again the third day. Many only have an intellectual knowledge of that message which is not quite good enough.

    Salvation comes through faith in the substitutionary work of Christ, and by faith alone. It is not of works. It is not by baptism. Baptism is a work. It is not through any church. A church does nothing (except preach the gospel if it is a Bible-believing Church). Salvation is through Christ, and Christ alone. It is not through any other agency, sacrament, means of grace, etc. Christ said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
    That in itself should put an end to it all. Christ alone is the answer to salvation. It is not Christ and... It is faith in Christ alone. Faith in his shed blood.
    "Therefore we are justified by faith, that we might have peace with God."
    DHK
     
  12. tfisher1

    tfisher1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2004
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK, that all sounds great. That is what I believe, BUT, do you really think we can be so dogmatic as to say,for instance, our Church of Christ brethern are not saved since they think baptism is a part of salvation process. Can we really make that call on God's behalf? Does he not know their hearts? Are they going to stand before him in Heaven and hear him say, "I know you put your faith in my Son and believed in him, but you interpreted Acts 2:38 too literally, and therefore, depart from me, I never knew you". Somehow, I think their error on baptism may not be a "fatal error". Isn't salvation something that takes place in our hearts between ourselves and the Lord. I know several CoC members who are loving followers of Jesus Christ. They do not consider baptism a "work". Works would be feeding the poor, caring for orphans, donating money, whatever...Can they really be faulted for taking Acts 2:38 for what it says?

    I think there will be many more people in Heaven than some think. I don't mean those who don't believe Jesus Christ is the living Son of God, but those who accept him as their Lord and Saviour, believing him to be the Son of God who was sacrificed for our sins. It just bothers me to see us being so dogmatic on what "jot and tittle" salvation is, and speaking on behalf of God on whom he will and will not accept. Only he knows our hearts...
     
  13. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    I believe that the Church of Christ, because of their beliefs on soteriology can be rightly classified as a cult. I also believe that in spite of their teaching there may be some that will be saved, and yet at the same time because of their teaching many will be lost.
    The true gospel is not preached, but rather a false gospel, a gospel of works, a gospel that demands baptism as a part of salvation.
    What can we say?

    Jer.17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?
    --Only God.

    The Lord knows them that are His.
    DHK
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Certainly they are wrong about the baptismal regeneration since a lost person would never choose to be baptized -- if they remain wicked and lost and "not born again" they will simply refuse obedience. Nobody would ever be baptized.

    So they are wrong.

    However - so is the RCC wrong about purgatory and sacraments and baptism.

    So also are the Lutherans wrong about Baptism - as are the Presbyterians and Methodists. The infants are making no choice at all either before baptism, at it or immediately following it - yet they claim the soul is changed purely by the power of the sacrament (works) and not the faith of the sinner being baptized (faith alone -- grace).

    Now of course in the case of the Presbyterians it is "calvinism" where God chooses for you in a system that is not "Saved by grace through faith" nor is it "justified by faith alone" RATHER in the case of the Presbyterian hyper-Calvinism it is "Saved by Grace..." no faith and it is "Justified.." no faith.

    So --- wrong on Baptism and wrong on Justification and wrong on "no choice salvation" where the sleeping infant goes from sleep that is not saved to sleep-that-is-saved.

    Purely passive salvation -- that is based on an "arbitrary selection" style grace.

    But all that "wrongness" (read "doctrinal error") does not make them lost.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, if you will read Revelation chapter 18 you can see that God is calling people out of "Babylon" and saying that it has become a habitation of devils. Verse 4 says:

    "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."


    Revelation 18:
    1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
    2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
    4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    NOTICE that God calls these deceived people MY PEOPLE. He loves them, He rebukes them. They are obviously ignorantly doing something that they dont know is wrong.

    Then again in Revelation chapter 3:
    14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    God says that He LOVES those who are in a deceived state, He rebukes them BECAUSE He loves them. And He offers to come sup with them if they realize their mistake and open the door to Him.

    If we are IGNORANTLY doing something wrong and dont realize it, just as Saul did before he became PAUL... God understands this. Read what James says:

    Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


    Acts:17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

    But then again there is such a thing as WILLFUL IGNORANCE. If you purposely close your eyes to the truth and do not bother to search out the truth, then that's a different story. Proverbs says we should search for the truth diliently.

    And it is not up to us to judge individuals. We cannot know these things, only God knows the heart. You can judge whether or not a church body is teaching error, by comparing what they teach with the Scriptures. But thats as far as it goes.


    ----------

    Claudia Thompson
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
     
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think maybe some confuse someone who is just doing what God had commanded them to do, with judging them. You can actually do one and not do the other. But God uses people many times to deliver His messages. What ought to really worry you is if God decides not to tell you anymore, if you have grieved His Spirit away time and time again. :(


    Isa:58:1: Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.


    Ezek:3:17: Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    Ezek:33:2: Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

    Ezek:33:6: But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

    Ezek:33:7: So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Who said anything about judging individuals. We are judging the doctrinal errors, mostly of religious organizations, and judging according to the Word of God. Only Christ saves. If you are not trusting in Christ to save you, you are barking up the wrong tree. Baptism, your church, confirmation, or any other religious rite, or work cannot save you. Only faith in the shed blood of Christ and his substitutionary work on the cross will save you. It is by faith and faith alone. When religions add to the gospel the gospel becomes a false gospel, and as Paul says in Galatians chapter one, it is accursed.
    DHK
     

Share This Page

Loading...