Athanasius and 1 John 5:7-8

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ransom, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Ransom

    Ransom
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    On another forum, someone has attempted to establish the authenticity of the Johannine Comma at 1 John 5:7-8 by pointing out that John Gill claims Athanasius cited it in defense of the Trinity against the Arians circa AD 350.

    Unfortunately, although Gill seems to be cited an awful lot around the Web as a secondary source, I have yet to find a primary citation of Athanasius himself or the specific work in which this alleged citation appears.

    Can anyone shed some light on the subject?

    No KJV-only rantings please, unless you have Athanasius' citation in his own words and sufficient additional bibliographic information for me to read it for myself.
     
  2. Major B

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    I have Gill in CD format, and found his reference. However, when I subjected by copy of Athanasius' works, also in CD to an extensive search of every possible combination that would point in that direction, I found no reference. It could be that Gill's copy of the document was not a good text, but a corrupted Latin text.
     
  3. rsr

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    I can't find it except in the reference from Gill. I have searched De Incarnation and have found nothing like it. Anyone else?
     
  4. HankD

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    I believe the most that can be said with any certainty is that there is Itala manuscript and early Latin Church father support of the Comma contemporary with Athanasius (300-370AD) which he might have used.

    HankD
     
  5. dean198

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    It is supposed to have been quoted in Pseudo Athanasius, in a work called the Disputation with Arius, but I cannot find this work anywhere, and wonder if it exists. It reads:

    “Is not that lively and saving baptism, whereby we receive remission of sins, administered in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And St. John says, And these three are one."

    Reference: Three Letters Addressed To The Editor Of The Quarterly Review In Which Is Demonstrated The Genuineness Of The Three Heavenly Witnesses 1 John V. 7. By Ben David London, 1825.

    If anyone can find the work, please let me know. It may have been a seventh century work of Maximus.


    A fifth century Lectionary of Apostolos, is supposed to contain the verse, but once again I have not been able to get solid proof.

    A scholium on Psalm 122 attributed to the Origen says “The Lord our God is threefold; for They are one”

    Cyprian appears to quote it in the Latin, but there is not much Greek support. Unfortunately Gill seems to be a little error prone in his work on this verse.

    Dean
     
  6. HankD

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    Quoted by Latin fathers as being Scripture:

    Cyprian (258 AD) “The Lord says, ‘I and the Father are one’ and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one’.”

    Priscillian (385 AD)
    As John says “and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.”

    Varimadum (380 AD) states: “And John the Evangelist says ‘And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one’.” [6]

    Cassian (435 AD),
    Cassiodorus (580 AD), etc...

    HankD
     
  7. Major B

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    I have the fathers, (AGES electronic edition) and cannot find those references. Can you give me edition, year, publisher, volume, title, page number, etc., because I'd really like to know that the deal is here. If those come from secondary sources and cannot be verified in a primary source, then there is a problem.
     

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