Atonement (John Owen)

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. Southern

    Southern
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    The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

    All the sins of all men.
    All the sins of some men, or
    Some of the sins of all men.
    In which case it may be said:

    That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
    That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
    But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
    You answer, "Because of unbelief."

    I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!" - John Owen

    Conclusion question- Please list which of the options you chose and answer the question that Owens asks on your specific position...

    _______________________________________________
    "That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor 15:3)

    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (Is. 53:11)

    We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. C.H. Spurgeon
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    John Owen has not set the correct premise, nor does he ask the right question.

    What John Owen overlooks is Paul's indictment that "we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers". Sin is a power, men are flesh and blood.

    Jesus died to atone for sin, not men! That is, to eliminate the power of sin so that it can NO LONGER keep man from receiving everlasting life through faith!

    There is only one case, and that is the atonement for sin. So it is not a matter of some or all, and it is not a matter of belief or unbelief, but rather, a matter of truth regarding atonement.

    Atonement for sin does not require mans belief in it to be effective or for it to have God's desired affect, which is removal of the penalty of sin.

    Jesus' Atonement saves no one. God does the saving. Jesus' atonement for sin has no bearing on our believing, or not believing in Jesus. There is plenty of other reasons to believe in Jesus! Just read the books of the Gospels and you'll see an eternity of great reasons to have faith in Jesus. However, without Jesus' atonement for sin, there would be no way for man to receive the promised everlasting life, because the atonement removed the barrier to man having such life. The result of the atonement is that man can have everlasting life through faith alone. The man who has faith is saved by God! The man lacking faith is cast into the lake of fire.

    Yes Southern, I am aware of the scriptures. however, I am looking at the reality from a different perspective than Paul, or Spurgeon and apparently most of the posters on this bbs. I am looking at the reality of what God has done for man for which man has no input.
     
  3. whatever

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    That's not a good thing, IMO. I'll take Paul's perspective, who said "I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
     
  4. Southern

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    Wes,

    Exactly...

    Let me be more specific, this question is for those who believe the "entirety" of scripture to be inspired and believe in a substitutionary atonement.
     
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero
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    South

    Your premise that Christ underwent "punishment" rather than "being an atoning sacrifice" is interesting ...

    There is only one unpardonable sin ... the blasphemy of [the witness of] the Holy Spirit [That Christ is the Savior].

    If you reject the Christ, Christ died for your sin(s) as you stated, but not for your rejection of the message of the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. Southern

    Southern
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    ElGuero,
    So you are saying that "unbelief" is the only sin that Christ did not die for?
     
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    That's what I'd say since Salvation is through FAITH (BELIEF) ALONE! It is not of works, though our works are evidence of our faith.

    The fact is if you do not believe You cannot be saved!
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    That's not a good thing, IMO. I'll take Paul's perspective, who said "I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." </font>[/QUOTE]Just a reminder, Perspective has nothing to do with one's salvation. It has much to do with one's understanding. Having 'seen it' from Paul's perspective, and having all the knowledge that we do looking back on history, there are other perspectives that render the truth from a broader view than Paul was able to express in writing. I have no doubt Paul had a broader view than what he wrote for us, but Paul's writings are geared to his intended audience. Paul's mission was and is evangelism. Evangelists seldom give a greater perspective than is necessary to accomplish their mission.

    Furthermore, if Paul had written from a broader perspective, we would not be able to carry our bibles, we'd need a wagon to carry it.
     
  9. Southern

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    Wes,
    Let me be more specific. When Christ bore "iniquities"(Is. 53:11), which iniquities were these (unbelief or not unbelief) and on whose behalf did Christ bear them?
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Southern,

    There is no iniquity committed by those who truly believe in Jesus unto everlasting life,[Romans 4:8]and obviously the sin of unbelief also.

    The only people's iniquity of unbelief that will remain unforgiven are those who refuse or neglect Christ in their hearts or lives. This will be shown to them [​IMG] at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11-15]
     
  11. Southern

    Southern
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    Ray,
    So Christ did not pay for the "unbelief" of unbelievers in your view. If this is true, then Christ did "not" die for "all" their sins. Is this what you are saying? Again, please list which of the views above fits your theology...
     
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero
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    Southern,

    Why do you twist words.

    It is not upon my authority that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unpardonable. But upon the Authority of THE Word of God in flesh ... and the Authority of the Written Word of God.
    "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew ...
     
  13. Southern

    Southern
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    El Guero,
    I am not understanding you. Are you equating unbelief with the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? If you agree with one of the options from the first post, please pick one of those so I will know where you are coming from.
     
  14. padredurand

    padredurand
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    Southern, are you in law school or are you using us to help you with your homework? :D

    Why would unbelief diminish the Cross?

    Unbelief keeps men from coming; it does not negate the calling. Unbelief causes distrust in Jesus' ability to save; it does not diminish His ability to save. Unbelief says, "He will never accept me"; when His very beckoning says come. Unbelief says "there is no God"; God says, "Ask Nietzsche what he thinks now."

    There is no gray area to discuss here. You are either saved or lost; believe or reject. There's no room for shades of gray. You are either in Christ or in sin. Your sinful condition has nothing to do with God's abilities or desires. To say, or imply, that unbelief is a sin "unpaid for" is nonsense. If it was unpaid for; nobody is saved.
     
  15. Southern

    Southern
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    Padre,
    Which one of the options from the first post do you believe to be the teaching of the Scripture?
     
  16. padredurand

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    None of them. Now you answer me. Law school or seminary? ;)
     
  17. Southern

    Southern
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    Padre,
    I am in neither Law School nor Seminary, why do you ask?

    In Christ
     
  18. padredurand

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    You poke, prod, pry, ask difficult questions, try inquiring minds and a million other traits that are found either in lawyers or theologians. Irascible behavior is either a sign of scholarship or an annoying personality. I'll give you credit for the former, though I'm sure there are plenty that will vote for the latter.

    Now that I've given you credit for scholarship, do you have a citation for the Owen quote in the OP?

    Second question; Has Owen presented all the possibilities or (as Wes, Outwest said) is the premise flawed from the beginning?
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Southern,
    So long as you insist that a condition of human spirit is sin, you'll not understand the truth.

    Belief and unbelief, and All conditions inbetween the extreems of either is a condition of spirit. All deeds of man are the product of a condition of spirit.

    An unbelieving spirit does not exist. Every spirit believes in something, Even satan's demons believe. It is what the spirit believes that makes the difference in the person! We humans act out according to our beliefs.
     
  20. whatever

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    Southern,
    So long as you insist that a condition of human spirit is sin, you'll not understand the truth.

    Belief and unbelief, and All conditions inbetween the extreems of either is a condition of spirit. All deeds of man are the product of a condition of spirit.

    An unbelieving spirit does not exist. Every spirit believes in something, Even satan's demons believe. It is what the spirit believes that makes the difference in the person! We humans act out according to our beliefs.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that it is not sin to not believe in Christ?
     

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