Automatic Tithing

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by chuck2336, Jan 12, 2009.

  1. chuck2336

    chuck2336
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    A friend of mine is on staff at a large church, at that church they automatically take 10% out of his pay for his tithe. I have not heard of this before and honestly not sure how I feel about it.

    Have any of you been in a church that did this to the staff?

    Would you do this as a pastor, ask the church to take it out of your pay?

    This has given me some things to think about.

    Chuck
     
  2. hawg_427

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    No I wouldn't let the Church ake any money out of my paycheck. I don't believe in Tithing. It is under the LAW and we are under GRACE, my Wife and I give from our hearts. It is different amt. every Sunday. The Lord loves a cheerful giver :):tongue3:
     
  3. Salty

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    If they did it once, it would be the last time!!

    No one takes $$ out my pay without my ok - (i know the govt does, but my rep voted for it so in a way, I did ok it) but if my church did, thats grounds for immediate end of my services.
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    I don't think chuck meant that the church took debited the bank account without consent. I don't think the bank could do it without authorization.

    Now, if it was a requirement of membership, that's another thing.
     
  5. Salty

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    I'm talking about a deduction off my pay voucher - thus reducing my take-home pay
     
  6. chuck2336

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    This was done with the persons ok. It is a requirement for staff members. Also this was not done for the membership just staff members of the church.

    The reason this has sparked an interest in me is because I was a pastor for seven years at my last church when things went ugly. The one thing they had on me was there was no record of my tithe. I don’t write checks and would often just put money in the plate before anyone got to service. There was no paper trail to look at.

    This, I thought might eliminate that problem. I know this would not have mattered in my last church, these folks would have found something else to be mad about.

    But I try to learn from the things happening in my life, good or bad. This was a very bad thing for my family and me. I am not sure I will ever seek another position in the church, but if I do I will try not to make the same mistakes.


    Chuck
     
  7. annsni

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    I would honestly confront them on the Scriptures that speak of a cheerful giver and a giver in secret. I'd tell them that they are causing you to be disobedient to the Lord. I'd also ask for them to show you in Scripture just where the priests went to the homes to grab the tithe from the people. What they are doing is wrong. If my church did that, I'd honestly be looking for another church. They are disobeying the Word - and what else are they disobeying? Are they trusting God to provide? I don't think so.

    MAN, I'd be ticked in a huge way.
     
  8. Allan

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    Apparently you haven't read the whole thread, most specifically where it states he "ok'd' this AND that it is only a requirement for the staff NOT the church.

    Secondly, No one went anywhere and 'took' anything. Please show scripture were his giving cheerfully a tithe out of his paycheck is disobeying the Lord.
    You did all this because of your assumption and not reading the full thing. I admit that the OP wasn't giving all the best information but it was only a couple of posts later that he clarified what was going on. However it does seem that we are quick rebuke just because the word tithe was mentioned. For a second look at how far you took your accusation. First you rebuke (Ok, I understand your point) but then you take it a step further and accuse them of potentially having other areas of disobedience. And then you finally bring the accusation of them not trusting God. Are you mad this morning or what? Please be careful when assuming. I usually an the one wrong when I do this.


    BTW- It is not against the word to tithe but is actaully biblical :) - it just isn't if you aren't cheerfully giving it unto God who gave it to you in the first place to steward over His stuff.
     
    #8 Allan, Jan 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2009
  9. annsni

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    Yes, the staff person OKed it but what choice did he have? He either agreed or quit/will be fired. It is a REQUIREMENT. If a church is in error in this, how do we know there are not other areas where they are in error? I think this is a serious error too - so I spoke strongly about it.

    I agree that the tithe is Biblical. I happily go along with the idea that the tithe is a great guideline and should be my minimum giving to the church. I give happily and know that my money is going to a church who I feel is Biblical in all that I've seen them do. If my church forced me as a staff person to give a tithe, then I would leave that church that is in great error. End of story.
     
  10. Allan

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    Did you stop to consider that maybe he came 'on staff' knowing this is what was expected of those who are or will be on staff? The fact it is a 'requirement' does not give neither you nor I the right to assume the intension of making it so. Maybe all those in leadership wanted to ensure (by an easy visable trail - so to speak) that they ALL in leadership are leading by example and this was an easy way they all agreed might work. Did you think that just maybe everyone who comes on staff is apprised of this and that they might actually agree to it happily?

    It is in this we must be careful. Just becuase it is a requirement does not mean he had no choice nor does it mean he was caught sideways with this and had no recourse but to obey.

    I understand you spoke strongly about it, but my issue wasn't the strength of your comment but the fact your strong comment was based primarily upon an assumption and that because of your assumption you brought baseless accusation against them of being disobedient and not trusting God. You maligned them without any 'real' cause.
     
  11. Mexdeaf

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    My church does this. It is NOT a requirement of staff members, we are asked voluntarily- even the amount is voluntary, it does NOT have to be 10%. It is pre-tax giving, and something I would do anyhow, so why not save myself the hassle of writing a check every two weeks (although we do write one for special offerings) and get a little tax benefit to boot?

    I would do it even if there were no tax benefit, BTW.
     
  12. Tom Butler

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    Chuck's church is one which believed that tithing is scriptural, and believed that its pastor and staff should be tithers. It was not up for debate, and being a tither was a condition of employment.

    chuck did not say he was not a tither. He said he did not have a paper trail to follow.

    Debate the automatic withdrawal all you want. I don't think I'd like that practice, and I've never heard of it before. But that's just me.
     
  13. Allan

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    To each church their own.

    The point regarding the 'paper trial' was just an assumption just as 'annsni' assumption about the 'requirment'. We can speculate with assumptions all day but we should be careful not to malign or bring accusation against another when we don't know all the facts concerning the issue. THAT is my point.

    ANNSNI - If you are correct in your assumption then I actaully would agree but again my point was not to bring accusation based off of an assumption.
     
  14. annsni

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    Allan - It doesn't matter if it were a requirement before he was hired or afterwards. In fact, it is wrong Biblically. Period. If this were a requirement for hire, then I'd not be hired by a church IN ERROR. If this came up afterwards, I'd leave the employ and membership of the church IN ERROR. It's the error of a forced tithe that I have issue with. Not ONCE in Scripture was money automatically taken from someone. It was a free choice of each person. God would take care of those who did not tithe.

    Now, if it were a choice to do like doing a flexible spending account, that would be a different story but the statement "It is a requirement for staff members." tells me that it's not a choice.

    You said:

    An easy visible trail is a Biblical error. It should only be visible to the person donating - it should not be visible to any of the other staff with the exception of those who are in charge of finances - in our case it's the administrative pastor and his 2 assistants. Our senior pastor does not know what any of his staff give (and it's a staff of 40+ people). Honestly, I'd say the church has very little faith in the spiritual health of it's employees if they need to "ensure" that they are 'voluntarily' giving (as is shown in Scripture - it's of a person's own free will).
     
  15. annsni

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    Assumption of what? "It is a requirement for all employees" is not an assumption but a fact. I'm sorry you seem to be hung up on that. You want to be employed by ABC Church? You must tithe out of your paycheck.
     
  16. Tom Butler

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    Would it be okay if, when presented with this condition of employment, you agreed to the automatic deduction? Seems to me that consent is there.
     
  17. Allan

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    Again with the assumptions. Something is not 'forced' if they willingly and thus cheerfully agree. Keep the assumptions out of your argument. So again, NOTHING was 'taken' from anyone but freely and willingly given.

    Wrong, It is still a choice.

    Umm, that was my point. Again, even in my comments you are assuming something I was not saying.
    There is nothing in scripture that says a church can not require this.
    Scripture only states that if one is to give he must be a cheerful giver. It does not tell us from where it must come or how it must be given or the manner in which it is received. It only states that one who is giving is do so (in whatever means they do give) cheerfully. So the 'requirement' is not unbiblical regarding the holding of a position in a church, but 'would' be so if it was forcefully taken even when the person does not desire to give.

    Your still assuming and continuing to malign brothers and sisters in Christ with NO real proof but your 'assumption'.

    Is it really that hard to say you were wrong and that what you said is purely speculation at best. But that it 'could' be true IF what you assumed were actaully true.
     
    #17 Allan, Jan 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2009
  18. Allan

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    The assumption is not that it is a requirement but what you 'assume' is the intent behind making it a requirement and the assumption of disobedience and not trusting God (both are based upon your assumptions and not facts here). You will note I have repeatedly addressed this.

    I am hung up on your accusations against fellow believers based upon imagination of what 'might be' and not what is.
     
  19. annsni

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    What assumption? It was a REQUIREMENT. That is a fact, not an assumption.


    I agree with you - it is a choice as far as does he want a job here or not. But since the tithe has never been a "requirement" that is forced on someone, it should not be forced on an employee. That would be like an office requiring you to give a certain amount of money to the Red Cross - or else you do not have a job. What kind of choice is that? A 'giver' is not forced to give. If you are REQUIRED to give, you are being forced.



    Honestly, I'd say the church has very little faith in the spiritual health of it's employees if they need to "ensure" that they are 'voluntarily' giving (as is shown in Scripture - it's of a person's own free will).[/QUOTE]
    Your still assuming and continuing to malign brothers and sisters in Christ with NO real proof but your 'assumption'.[/quote]

    I'm assuming nothing - you stated something and I answered. I'm not saying that the church IS doing this - but I responded to what you said about "ensuring" giving.

    I'm responding to what I'm reading. I can do nothing other than that. So I have no reason to say I'm "wrong", thank you very much.
     
  20. Allan

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    No one on that staff is 'forced' to give either. They agree to give not out of obligation to be on staff but toward God. This is your error over and over and over again.

    No church is worth their salt if the have people is positions of leadership who do not give consistantly and continuously to God (This is the principle of the tithe or giving). Thus it is still a 'requirement' in most all the churches I know of to tithe if you want to be in a leadership position. The 'requirement' being addressed is not a 'forced' issue (because they desire to do so) but a 'maturity' issue. They just have it in writing down on the application where many churches have it in the their by-laws.


    Anyway - I'm done here and have said my peace. Have a blessed and grace filled day.
     
    #20 Allan, Jan 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2009

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