Babylon was 1st century Jerusalem

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, Dec 19, 2003.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    "The Great City"

    Babylon

    Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    Jerusalem

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    "Whore and Adultery"

    Babylon

    Rev 17: 5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Jerusalem

    Ez 6: 9 And those of you that escape shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captive, how that I have been broken with their lewd heart, which hath departed from me, and with they eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

    Ez 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.
    16 And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

    Jer. 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah.
    2 Lift up thine eyes unto the bare heights, and see; where hast thou not been lain with? By the ways hast thou sat for them, as an Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
    3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; yet thou hast a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
    4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My Father, thou art the guide of my youth?
    5 Will he retain his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and hast done evil things, and hast had thy way.
    6 Moreover Jehovah said unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
    7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery , I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

    "Blood of the Saints"

    Babylon

    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

    Rev18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

    Jerusalem

    Matt 23: 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

    I Thess2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
    16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

    "Saints warned to Escape"

    Babylon

    Rev 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
    5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived

    Jerusalem

    Lk 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out ; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    "Adorned like a Priest"

    Babylon

    Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls , having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication,

    Rev 18:16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!

    Jerusalem

    Ex 28: 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
    6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and purple, scarlet, and fine twined linen, the work of the skilful workman7 It shall have two shoulder-pieces joined to the two ends thereof, that it may be joined together.8 And the skilfully woven band, which is upon it, wherewith to gird it on, shall be like the work thereof and of the same piece; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen..9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:10 six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth.11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones, according to the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be inclosed in settings of gold.

    "Destroyed by Hailstones"

    Babylon

    Rev 16:
    21 And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

    Jerusalem

    Josephus records in his book, "War of the Jews" Book 5 chapter 6:3 , that stones weighing 1 talent were catapulted into Jerusalem during the siege by the Roman armies.

    Punishment for a harlot were burning and stoning

    Old Covenant instructions:

    Lev21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

    Deut 22:20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
    21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones , because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.


    Babylon

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire.

    Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Notice the celebration of the fall of Babylon:


    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.

    No more persecution of the early church by the Jews. They had been judged just as Jesus said they would be.

    Matt 23: 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you , All these things shall come upon this generation .
     
  2. LadyEagle

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    Wow, and here all this time I thought it was the U.N. [​IMG]
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    Not suprising.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Good thoughts, Grasshopper - Did you give credit to where this was "borrowed" from? Someone - obviously an a-millenialist! - did a lot of work to conjur this analogy.

    I have trouble with the theology - trying to make obviously future prophecy (in AD90 when John wrote this) apply BACKWARD to AD70 when most of the evil befell Jerusalem).
     
  5. Charles Meadows

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    I'd have to agree with Dr Bob on this one. There certainly are some similarities - but then both are intending to speak in apocolyptic terms so you might expect some similarities. Remember that Revelation is very intentionally "Old Testament" in its symbolism.

    Regarding the idea of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD as being the "end times" described in the NT there are some problems I think. To see the fall of Jerusalem in Mark's "little apocalypse" makes some sense - actually alot of sense, particularly given Jesus' concern with the "temple" (naos). It makes less sense to see this in Revelation since a pre 70 date for the book just doesn't fit well with the times and since Revelation not only talks about the "end of things" but also about the final judgment as well.

    I think there is not necessarily one city that IS Babylon - rather this term is used in a more symbolic nature. [​IMG]
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Good thoughts, Grasshopper - Did you give credit to where this was "borrowed" from? Someone - obviously an a-millenialist! - did a lot of work to conjur this analogy.

    These are notes I had written in my bible. They probably came from an article by Don Preston and others, not sure though. I did not copy and paste if that is what you are getting at. That little gem took me a while. If it was Preston he is not an a-mill, but a full preterist.

    (in AD90 when John wrote this)

    Prove it. Pick up the book "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry sometime. This is a subject that the Church is going to have to deal with in the coming years.

    Remember that Revelation is very intentionally "Old Testament" in its symbolism.

    I agree 100%. So why do some wish to make Revelation literal? Why don't we let the OT help us interpret it?

    To see the fall of Jerusalem in Mark's "little apocalypse" makes some sense - actually alot of sense, particularly given Jesus' concern with the "temple" (naos).

    Does not Mark record the same events as Luke and Matthew? Are you willing to at least say Mark is dealing with the Fall of Jerusalem. Be careful how you answer this, thats how I started into preterism.

    Revelation not only talks about the "end of things" but also about the final judgment as well.

    Yes it does doesn't it. [​IMG] Just find out what things are ending and you're half way home.

    I think there is not necessarily one city that IS Babylon - rather this term is used in a more symbolic nature.

    Babylon is symbolic of Jerusalem. Can you prove it refers to more than 1 city?
     
  7. Bethelassoc

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    I've been coming to the same conclusion that Babylon is in reference to Jerusalem. It seems that the theme in the OT and NT shows references to a nation that rejected the truth and so judgment was casted upon them. For Christ to say "your house is left unto you desolate" to Jerusalem is quite a potent statement. Why then would Christ cast an evil "light" upon some other nation or city (Rome, etc) because of where Jerusalem stood with him?

    I also agree that Revelation is a compilation of the OT. I believe everybody would at least gain a better appreciation of the book if they kept that in perspective, I know it has helped me.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that A.T. Robertson believed that all the books of the Bible were completed before the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). But, I'll leave that up to the scholars! [​IMG]

    Good thread!
     
  8. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
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    Grasshopper, just wondering, are a follower of Family Radio's Harold Camping?
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Nope, never heard of him.
     

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