Baptism question

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JonC δοῦλος, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. JonC

    JonC
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    If someone has been living with a woman for years but never married and comes to believe in Christ as Savior, would you feel it appropriate to deny his request to be baptized since he is living with a woman out of wedlock?
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    As a belever why has he not married her if he repented of his sexual sin?
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    yes, should delay that, for baptism is being obedient to the commands of jesus, but think getting his lifestyle choice lined up regarding obeying God view on living together more important at this time to get resolved first!
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    maybe has to wait until God saves her also before can get married?
     
  5. JonC

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    I don’t know. I guess one could also ask “as a believer, why was he not baptized?” – but we know why. The young man stopped by the office today to see if there was a Chaplin who would baptize him. His girlfriend is a professing Christian, and he started attending church with her several months ago. The pastor will not baptize him because of his relationship with his girlfriend.

    I know it is irrational to say that before he can be saved he must “fix” his lifestyle by either marrying the girl or kicking her out (they both live with his parents). Salvation is not by works and it is through Christ we are saved (we are unable to “fix” ourselves). So he is currently disobedient on two issues that I know of – baptism and his live in girlfriend who wants him to marry her. So the question is, once saved which one gets taken care of first. Are we saved, then to examine ourselves and fix our disobedience in order to be baptized (ignoring the command to be baptized until everything else is worked out), or do we go ahead and get baptized and then continue to repent of unrepented sins?

    I was just curious as to what you would say to such a person. I can actually see it both ways, and am not certain (if I were his pastor) which way I would go. I see issues not baptizing, but I also see issues with baptizing and accepting this person into local church membership (only to be obligated to exercise church discipline).

    Anyway – bottom line is that it was a strange day at the office for me. My other visitor was a high school senior who wanted to know if he joined the Navy how he could secure benefits and housing for his gay partner. (I told him that I didn’t know – I’m not in the Navy).
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Sin causes problems!!!!!

    In the previous two posts...both of you mentioned"his lifestyle choice"

    Fornication is a deathstyle....not a "lifestyle choice".
    God has no christians living in fornication....

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Do you see the problem with this thing? sin causes problems...repentance is necessary....The woman ...the" professed christian"....has no right to be offering up...free samples either:thumbsup::thumbsup: Both need to repent.
     
  7. JonC

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    I disagree. Sin (i.e., shacking up, homosexuality, drunkenness, etc) is not the cause of the problem, they are manifestations of the problem. But I do agree that both need to repent – and if they have repented of their own "righteousness" then they will repent of their sins.

    I guess that’s the difference between your view and mine (if I understand you correctly). I see “repent and believe” not as “repent of your individual sins and believe” (that would be “repent and obey”) but “repent of your own righteousness - your sin nature - and believe (only then can you truly repent of your individual sins).
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    I would counsel him to get his life right morally before following Christ's command in baptism.

    I would also counsel them and evaluate where they are and what it looks like moving forward. We've done marriage ceremonies on short notice...like this coming afternoon short notice.

    Great question. :thumbsup:
     
  9. annsni

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    I would counsel them to get married to fix the mess they are in. I would also counsel them to get baptized. Why not do both on the same day? I know it sounds crazy but I'm sure they are not looking for a big fancy wedding by why not start your marriage off with a bang? Perform the ceremony, baptize them at the end - and then have a big celebration. :)
     
  10. Gina B

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    What else should one wait for after belief?

    Should he quit lusting? Smoking? Eating fast food? Is he lazy? Does he owe anyone anything? Is he jealous of people who have things he can't afford?

    Just how perfect does one have to get before they can be good enough to be baptized? If he would have been baptized five minutes after belief and confession of that belief, would he still have been pure enough for immersion? Did he simply wait too long and now he's tainted again by sin?

    Are future sins not covered? Just past ones?

    How does this whole baptism thing work? I thought the second one confessed belief, they were to be baptized. I never did get why people waited if it wasn't winter and the place had an indoor thing. Too stinking lazy to even fill a bath tub? LOL What's up with that? Especially if you're going to go with the idea that someone gets "sinful" within x amount of time after belief, since the Bible shows a VERY clear example of stopping right there and baptizing someone upon their confession of faith. Right?

    That is so very Mormon of you, requiring a person meet up to your standards before you baptize them.
     
    #10 Gina B, Oct 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  11. Thousand Hills

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    But, But, But..... everyone is doing it these days, what's the big deal? don't we just need to love them and coddle them?

    Seriously, this should be a good and relevant thread, look forward to the discussion. Might I suggest the OP retitle the thread for future searches.

    My $0.02 is that this sin doesn't just affect them it could effect others, kids if involved, etc. Marriage is a symbol of the relationship between Christ and his church, and as believers we shouldn't take it lightly. While salvation isn't of works, a change in how they view their relationship would seem like a fruit of repentance.
     
  12. JonC

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    I agree. Baptism symbolizes our rebirth and IMHO should immediately follow salvation. But I do understand the problem accepting someone, after they are saved, into the church if they rebel against repentance of identified sin. In the case of this young man, I would lean towards baptizing him (provided, of course, that he understood baptism and could actually profess faith in Christ – I don’t really know as it was a brief discussion this morning). But I would be apprehensive about accepting him as a member of a local church without addressing his lifestyle (not playing semantics, it is a lifestyle – sorry Icon, but I do understand your point).
     
  13. SaggyWoman

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    I am not sure what the point would be in denying baptism. I thing that other change will come.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    Think the mainpoint though here would be he cannot give a good testimony of his faith with others knowing what the lifestyle situation is, as the bible seems to indicate that exual sins carry special connotations, as he would be willfully joining jesus right now in a sinful arrangement, right when his prclaiming Him lord by the Baptism!
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Fornicators...who are in the practice of fornicating ...do not go to heaven.

    Why should anyone baptize a fornicator who is actively fornicating?
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Yeshua1

    Unless he repents of fornication..he has no testimony.
    This is wordly language....it is fornication and rebellion to God's word.
    ,

    it seems to indicate????

    Any such baptism would be taking God's name in vain.
     
  17. JonC

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    If the guy's actively fornicating in the front pew waiting to be baptized...of course he shouldn't be baptized - they should kick him out of church. But what is "is"...or in this case "are" anyway? :smilewinkgrin:

    But seriously, I do see your point. It is, however, close to being a works based salvation (he can't be saved because he is a sinner and sinners don't go to heaven and saved people don't go to hell).

    I'm just not sure that when someone is saved that they are to go and get everything in order and then be baptized.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Yes...correct.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Gina B

    Hello Gina B

    Perhaps evidence that the Spirit of God is indeed indwelling the person having made them a new creation.
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


    yes he should

    every area of life must be under the Lordship of Christ...the pastor should use this as a way to explain the christian life and biblical sanctification

    these are all considerations.....I think to get more clarity on any of these issues you must answer the question as this is taught by the apostle Paul;



    Romans 6

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    When there were visible sign gifts manifest that might have been true...not now however.


    it is a scriptural based thing...not a morman idea.
     
  20. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Who is it that appoints you or anyone else to judge that belief is valid? No one judges the heart, and forbidding baptism until "evidence of a changed life" is presented isn't at all biblical.

    Ludicrous!

    Acts 22, NASB
    12 "A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,
    13 came to me, and standing near said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight !' And at that very time I looked up at him.
    14 "And he said, 'The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.
    15 'For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.
    16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' [Emphasis added]

    Paul exhibited no "sign gifts" before Ananias encouraged him to quickly be baptized. Paul had not yet begun to preach or show any outward sign that his life had indeed changed, beyond a stunned and shocked demeanor. If that's your "evidence" of a changed life, it is sadly wanting in substance. God certainly spoke to Ananias, but surely you wouldn't suggest that God speak to the one responsible for scheduling baptisms in the local church before he allows a baptism to happen?

    The idea from the day of Pentecost has been to "believe and be baptized," the latter as an outward testimony of inward change. Anyone who would hinder a new believer from baptism is acting against the will of God.
     
    #20 thisnumbersdisconnected, Oct 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2013

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