Baptist Bride?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    Recently I came across some material that said, in effect, that only "true" Baptists will make up the Bride of Christ, and that all others (those that aren't "true" Baptists as well as all other believers I suppose) will only be guests at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    This teaching seems to me to be some sort of final consummation of Baptist Landmarkism teaching, i.e., only those Baptist churches that can trace a sort of "chain-link" succession from the apostles to today are considered to be "true" Baptists and therefore if you're not a member of one of these "true" Baptist churches, you'll wind up being seated in what I guess you'd call the guest chamber at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    Am I wrong about this so-called "Baptist Bride" line of reasoning?
     
  2. Forest

    Forest
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    All of God's elect make up the bride of Christ, but only a few of the elect make up the visable church. This is explained in Eze refering to a wheel within a wheel. Matt 7:13-14 is an example of this, in that all of the people that enter into both gates are the elect children of God. Those of hs elect who go into the wide gate are those that are believing in the false doctrine of eternal salvation by their works, The invisiable church, and those of God's elect that go into the strait gate are those of God's elect that have been revealed the truth of Christ's doctrine, the visiable church.
    t
     
  3. David Lamb

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    I'm sorry Forest, but I cannot agree with you when you say that all of the people that enter into both gates are the elect children of God. In Matthew 7:13-14 Jesus says:
    13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
    Notice that the broad gate leads to destruction. So (unless I have the wrong idea of what you meant) you seem to be saying that the majority of God's elect are not going to be with Him in heaven, but instead are going to destruction. This leads me to wonder what you mean by the term "elect"? How are "those that are believing in the false doctrine of eternal salvation by their works" God's elect? I'm confused.

    (Sorry, KTN4eg, for taking the thread off course!)
     
    #3 David Lamb, Apr 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2012
  4. thomas15

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    Not very likely.
     
  5. HeirofSalvation

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    You are correct:thumbsup:
    In a nutshell, that is pretty much exactly what the "Baptist Bride" doctrine teaches....They may not all believe that you have to have perfect succession per se....most Baptist Briders do. It is easy to disparage it as a doctrine because it sounds...at least at first glance, insanely arrogant...but having studied it myself a good deal....it is harder to refute the idea than it might first seem. Right or wrong....they have a decent argument. As a fundamental... No Baptist Brider believes that the Bible teaches any such thing as the "Universal-Church". The "Church" MUST be understood as the local visible body only for the doctrine to have any legs. Concurrent with that prerequisite...Christ must have institutionally founded his church during his earthly ministry, and Pentecost must be understood as an empowering of the church and not its founding.
     
  6. saturneptune

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    We have had lots of discussion in our church about the Baptist Bride. Not many believe it. I tend to think it is a little extreme. I do believe this, that the local New Testement church was preserved from the apostles through time, before and along side of the Roman Catholic Church by local churches that our modern day Baptist faith came from. After the Reformation, I do not know if one could say that the newly formed Protestant churches added to that preservation, but certainly better than the RCC. I believe that we as Baptists today are the result of the gates of hell not prevailing against the NT local church. No doubt during the middle ages and even after the Reformation, many lives were given for faith in Jesus because they were considered heretics by Catholics, the Church of England, and even some Protestants. I think we all owe them a debt of gratitude whether we are present day Baptists or not.

    To take that to mean Baptists of today are the bride is a real stretch. Consider how different doctrine is amongst Baptists. Also, consider the state of our local churches as far as commitment to the Lord in attendance, life style, giving, and commitment. If there is a bride that is a particular group, it is those that came before us.

    As far as the universal church goes, it only is a useful entity in eternity. Here on earth, the local church does the work of the Lord. The universal church does not spread the Gospel, help the poor, take up offerings, worship the Lord, or adminsiter the Lords Supper or baptize.
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    I first heard the Baptist Bride view from a old preacher here in Western Kentucky, where Landmarkism was a widely-held view among Baptists.

    The context of his view was the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. He said only Baptists would be the sit-down guests, since they were the only true church. He said others who were believers would be there, but would only be able to stand around and watch. I didn't have a chance to ask clarifying questions, but it was clear that he held that there were saved people in other denominations, but those denominations could not qualify as true New Testament churches. That was a description fitting only Baptists.

    I'm pretty sure he believed that Baptists churches were true New Testament churches. And I'm sure he believed that any denomination formed out of the Reformation were not. I'm also pretty certain he also included New Testament churches which did not carry the name Baptist, but whose doctrine and practice were baptistic.

    It's my guess that he believed that his Church existed as the Bride, not on earth, but at the Marriage Supper.

    I'm not a full-fledged Landmarker, but I do hold some views which are considered Landmark in nature.

    One, is church perpetuity: That there have always been New Testament churches, known by different names throughout history.

    Two, is that the scriptures speak primarily of local churches, and there is no such entity as the Universal church. There are instances in which the church is spoken of in the generic or institutional sense, and also in the prospective sense, but never in the "universal" sense.
     
  8. AresMan

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    What else would these type of Baptists believe? That's why they get plenty of regular training on earth for this event. ;)
     
  9. revmwc

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    Baptist Briders go way back in the history of Baptist, many of the Missionary Baptist groups holds to that teaching. They go so far as to have anyone not baptized in one of their churches re-baptized, and a pastor who has been ordained a baptist must be re-ordained into their churches.
     
  10. michael-acts17:11

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    Baptist Briderism is the logical end to the denial of the spiritual Church of all believers. In practice, it sees the church as a place instead of a people, as an institution instead of an organism, as temporal instead of eternal. All local churches have a beginning and an ending. Local church membership is tenuous with absolutely no instruction from Scripture as to the method of admittance into such an organization.

    The has been a perpetuity of the Church because there has been a perpetuity of believers; not of religious institutions which align with our views of how they should be composed & operated. If a man in a pagan nation were to pick up a smuggled Bible, read it, believe on Jesus, study it, tell others, meet with those believers, or believer, to read that Bible whenever they could; that group, according to Baptist Briderism, would not qualify for "true church" status. They would first have to join a "true church", taught how a "true church" should operate, & then be given the authority to be a church from the "true church". This is an arrogant, elitist mindset which reveals Biblical ignorance & spiritual inadequacy. It is the same ideology as Catholicism which believes that the institution, not the individual, is endowed with the authority of the priesthood.
     
  11. David Lamb

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    This seems to be mainly an American phenomenon. If you go to www.google.co.uk and search for "baptist bride", you get 6,780 results. If you click on the link "Pages from the UK" you get a mere 64. In fact Google showed only 38, with the message:
    In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 38 already displayed
    Of those 38, 8 were sermons against the doctrine (not 8 different sermons - at least 6 were the same one), 11 were adverts for, and reviews of, books, 4 were definitions, 4 just happened to9 have the word "baptist" followed by the word "bride", but are nothing to do with this doctrine, 11 referencing marriages where the bride was a baptist (as in these words from the details of a 19th century marriage (emphasis mine):
    22nd March 1871 at Houghton, Groom Baptist, Bride Baptist, Solemnized .....​

    and 1 message-board post.

    There could be some people in the UK who believe the doctrine of "the baptist bride," but it seems there are either extremely few of them, or they keep very quiet! :laugh:
     
  12. Tom Butler

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    David, Landmarkism and the Baptist Bride view do seem to be uniquely of American origin. That's probably because Landmarkism was promoted mainly by a Baptist theologian and pastor named J. R. Graves. Google "J R Graves" and "Landmarkism"
    and you'll get a feel for the subject.

    In the 19th century and early half of the 20th century, Landmarkism was a widely held view among American Baptists, and there are still pockets of it today. The Baptist Bride is an offshoot of Landmarkism, but many Landmarkers do not go along with it.
     
  13. revmwc

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    I believe the teaching goes further back into the midieval period need to go back to my church history notes.
     
  14. Tom Butler

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    Oh, I agree that the teaching's antiquity. I was mainly referring to its being popularized by J. R. Graves' writings in America.

    Once you've reviewed your church history notes, I'd be interested in what you found, and hope you'll share them with the rest of us on the BB.
     
  15. revmwc

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    One course
    Taught the workings of how the church came through all the centuries. From the Apostles forward. How the RCC developed and the reformers etc.

    the other history of Baptist. The General Baptist of course was taught as a protestant group that had their beginings with John Smythe and Thomas Hewlys, but the other groups of baptist were seen as going back to the apostles. The early christian chuches.


    They of course pickup any group that had the basic beliefs of:
    Non pedo-baptism
    Baptism by immersion of believers only
    Seperation of church and state.
    plus a few more, that means, Donatist, Arnoldist, Petrobrusians, Montanist and others. To me a stretch to show them all as baptist, but shown as these groups having these beliefs would qualify them as baptist and it was in one of these groups I believe the Brider doctrine started.
     
    #15 revmwc, Apr 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2012
  16. Forest

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    Destruction can mean different kinds of destruction. You are interpreting the destruction in Matt 7:13 to mean everlasting punishment and that is not what it means. If a child of God believes that his works of righteousness is what saves him eternally, he is believing a false doctrine, but he is still a child of God and will have everlasting life in heaven. Many on this forum are believing that man's partisapation in allowing God to save them and I don't think they are going to everlasting punishment. Do you think by reading the many different posts that we all believe the same doctrine? Thats not my observation. I believe that most on this forum are truly seeking the truth of the scriptures, and if so, they are born again children of God. There are far more of God's elect that do not understand the doctrine of Christ, than those that do.
     
  17. David Lamb

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    Thanks Tom!
     
  18. David Lamb

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    Thanks for the response, Forest. Yes, of course I recognise that members of this Baptist Board do not all believe the same things - I realised that soon after joining, almost 6 years ago now :). But I do not agree that such diversity of belief among BB members gives any weight to your statement that the "broad gate" and "the narrow gate" are both entered by people who are children of God who will have everlasting life in heaven. You tell me that I have applied the wrong meaning to Matthew 7:13, and you then go on, not to show this from the Scriptures, but to give your own opinions. But I know that I still could be misunderstanding you. Let me give you my version of part of your post, which I hope will indicate to you what I believe on this matter (my parts in magenta):

    If a sinner believes that his own works are what save him eternally, he is believing a false doctrine, but if any sinner is "in Christ", knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour, he is still a child of God and will have everlasting life in heaven. Many on this forum are believing that man's contribution is necessary in allowing God to save them, but if, in spite of that, they know Jesus Christ (not merely know about Him), they are not going to everlasting punishment. Do you think by reading the many different posts that we all believe the same doctrine? Thats not my observation. I believe that most on this forum are truly seeking the truth of the scriptures, and if they are "in Christ", they are born again children of God. No one in this life, elect or not, has perfect understanding of either the written or the incarnate Word of God

    Apart from all that, you haven't explained (or better, I still don't understand) what you meant in your earlier post by your contention that only a few of the elect make up the visible church. I thought at first you might have meant that many of the elect have already completed their lives on earth, and others are yet to be born, but that doesn't seem to gel with the rest of what you wrote.

    Incidentally, I should stress that I am not condoning false doctrine, nor certainly that we can get to heaven by our own efforts! Like you, I am unhappy with the idea of "allowing God to save" - I just think of Saul, on the Damascus road!
     
    #18 David Lamb, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2012
  19. Forest

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    The church that Christ set up has by scriptures presented the church as, few, the remnant, the little flock, etc. The number of the elect are presented as the sands of the sea and the stars in the heavens, too many to count. There is a universal church which incompuses all of the elect and there is a visiable church that preaches the truth of Christ's doctrine.
     
  20. psalms109:31

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    Elect are the few, the saved will be amount saved like the sands of the seashore.

    Matthew 9:
    The Workers Are Few
    35 Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”

    Matthew 22:14
    “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    The few, the elect

    Revelation 7:
    4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

    5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

    from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

    from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

    6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

    from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

    from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

    7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

    from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

    from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

    8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

    from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

    from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


    God will use this elect to bring the saved in



    Revelation 7:
    The Great Multitude in White Robes
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!”

    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    The elect, the few

    Ephesians 1:
    11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


    The saved like the sands of the sea shore

    Ephesians 1:
    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    To be included means they were not there in the first place.
     
    #20 psalms109:31, Apr 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2012

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